Jesus (early Cyril Fagan writings)

[Jim Eshelman]

(Posted 11/15/2007, 2:12 PM)

There is considerable controversy over the question of whether there even was an historic figure Jesus of Nazareth. If there was, then documentation of his birth in a way immediately useful to us is virtually nonexistent. On the other hand, there is no birth in the history of recorded civilization that has drawn more attention.

Additionally, the chart presented below has an important place in Sidereal literature, even though it was produced by a Tropical astrologer. Y'see, the Tropical astrologer in question was... Cyril Fagan! In the years before he discovered the value of Sidereal solar and lunar returns, he was a leading Tropical astrologer in Ireland (founder of the Irish Astrological Society IIRC), but was already knee-deep in the exploration of antiquities.

For the sake of this post, I shall act as if there was an actual historic Jesus around whom the Christian foundation tales were built, and that, at least in the broad particulars, his story is reasonably well preserved in the literature available to us. From the beginning we have to admit that this is a stretch - There is no contemporary account of Jesus' life. The gospels long have been known to have been written no earlier than four decades after his reported death (Mark) and some of them a century of two later, The Pauline epistles are authored by someone who enters the story a decade after the death. What was once believed to be the one important contemporary account was learned around 1970 to have had Jesus' story added in a couple of centuries after the original was written. And, of course, in the 3rd Century CE, the Roman government had the New Testament source texts rewritten anyway.

Fagan's conclusions are controversial. People who don't understand his approach or procedure attacked him readily, thinking he took an easy road that was pleasing to his Catholic upbringing. OTOH I've been riveted by his approach and its results, and wanted to record the chart here so that it can get some new attention. One of the fascinating thing is that Fagan did this work in the 1930s when little was really known about Pluto, and when Pluto calculations for distant centuries were really bad. His calculations missed abysmally. With modern calculations, the picture becomes really fascinating!

So... here's how he went about it...

First, the year. It's been long known that the 1 BCE / 1 CE cross-over was not likely right, and the birth was probably a tad earlier. Fagan fixated on the number of avatars that have been born during a Jupiter-Saturn conjunction, so he started with that aspect in 7 BC. Decades later, new information confirmed that as almost certainly the year. As Fagan reported in Chapter 16 of Astrological Origins, King Herod the Great (per Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews) died shortly after a lunar eclipse near the Fast of Esther and before Passover. That eclipse is tied by some scholars to the relatively minor one on March 13, 4 BCE, but (in Fagan's view, and it makes sense to me) probably was the total lunar eclipse of March 23, 5 BCE. Solar Fire calculates this as March 23, 5 BCE, 8:52 PM LMT, Jerusalem. Since, about two years after the alleged birth of Jesus, Herod ordered the slaughter of all male children under the age of two, a birth around 7 BCE makes sense.

Next, the date. In his original article from the 1930s, Fagan mentioned that he had, not long before, published a study of the exact methods Mesopotamian astrologers used to predict world-changing events. Please understand that this is not a claim for the authenticity of the techniques, merely a claim that this is what Mesopotamian astrologers of that era used. Fagan's premise was that, since three Mesopotamian astrologers showed up in town saying they had predicted the birth of a new king, then we should at least figure out when they would have started loading their camels.

The technique was this: (1) Take a big astronomical event such as one of the largest cycles known to them, the Jupiter-Saturn conjunction. (2) See what planet is most exactly aspecting the conjunction when it occurs. (3) When that planet returns to aspect the same degree, the event will occur.

Jupiter conjoined Saturn three times in 7 BCE (times are Jerusalem LMT):
March 29, 11:03 AM, 24 Pisces 05
October 1, 8:32 AM, 20 Pisces 33
December 5, 4:22 PM, 18 Pisces 42

On the first of these dates, no planet was in aspect to the conjunction at the time it occurred. In the third one there was a square from the Sun, which was 15 Sag 03. But, even closer, the second of these charts had Venus at 18 Sco 10 trine the conjunction degree. The question would then become: When would Venus return to aspect 20 Pisces 33?

Venus turned retrograde October 15 at 22° Scorpio. It actually made its return crossing October 24. (It isn't clear to me - having not read Fagan's original article in decades - why this date wasn't used.) On November 25 it turned direct at 7° Scorpio, then made its final crossing of 20° Scorpio (trine the original conjunction degree) on December 25, 7 BCE.

This was too damn interesting to ignore! Additionally, on this date Venus provided an astronomical explanation for the most spectacular recorded event in the skies (well, other than the visible descent of heavenly hosts and stuff like that!) - a "star" seen in the east commemorating the birth. It was Venus herself that was most likely this star, being then at her greatest brilliancy and rising three and a half hours ahead of the Sun. In the rarefied dry air of Israel, without bright city lights, Venus' appearance above the eastern horizon for several hours each morning would have been stunning in its beauty. And, of course, it was the planet by which (according to this formula) they would have been making their calculations.

Are there other dates we should check? It seems October 24, 7 BCE (Venus' retrograde pass aspecting the conjunction degree) is in the running, but we miss the greatest brilliance factor. I think we should also note that Sun was 5° from square the third Jupiter-Saturn conjunction, and would next have aspected it (a sextile from 18 Capricorn 32) on January 7, 6 BCE (intriguingly close to the January 6 recorded by the Egyptian Orthodox Church). But the most spectacular is clearly December 25, 7 BCE.

But what about the shepherds? The argument against a December birth has always centered not around the Gospel According to Mark, but rather the Gospel According to Hallmark. The idea is that shepherds wouldn't have been out on the hills tending their flocks at night in the winter. The original reference is in Luke (and only in Luke). There is no particular reason to trust Luke, written at least several decades and possibly almost two centuries after the events it describes. If everything else points elsewhere, I'll go elsewhere. At the very least, there was a certain amount of dramatic mythopeia in that particular passage.

What time was he born? Fagan didn't explain how he obtained a time, except that he rectified it from such things as the likely date of crucifixion. One can be more skeptical of the time unless it behaves well astrologically, particularly with techniques then unknown to Fagan. - In any case, he came up with a time of 10:20 PM LMT (10:16 LAT) and - one can be pleased or skeptical or both! - Virgo is rising. Anyone born at this particular moment was indeed, in astrological terms, "born of the Virgin."

And with Pluto rising that closely, he would have felt fundamentally alien, like one born not of this world. Flown here from the planet Krypton, or found under a cabbage leaf, or somehow not entirely of the human race about him. One with no mother, no brother. (But with the Capricorn Sun, always having the instinct of a father.)

I'll post the actual chart in the next post on this thread.

[Jim Eshelman]

December 25, 7 BCE, 10:20 PM, Bethlehem, Israel

Based on the tools available to him in the early 1930s, Fagan thought Pluto was about 3° Libra. (However, he did the chart in the Tropical zodiac.) With modern calculations, we see that this proffered chart for what may be the single most important birth in the history of the world - a mundane astrology event as much as a personal event - times to the rising of Pluto. In fact, mundanely, Pluto was less than a degree above the Ascendant at the time of this chart.

I'll let all of you interpret this chart as much as you want, but need to mention a few things - mostly archetypal things. The Capricorn Sun has always comfortably fit to my thinking - everything from the ascetic to the effective story teller to the rabble-rousing activist. And the Pisces Moon (adding to three other planets in Pisces) is almost too good to be true: This was the symbolic imagery of his whole ministry and message (and BTW the most common Moon-sign for modern Christian clergymen - see Profession & Birth Date).

To me, this is the chart of a person deeply interested in alternative consciousness and - especially with proper training - able to see past the ordinary field of thought of most people. The foreground Moon-Uranus conjunction in Pisces is psychic and metaphysical and alternate reality boosting - and a helluva showman! - and all the rest. Pluto rising sure doesn't hurt. His ultimate (let's call it) political outcome is shown by both the Saturn-Pluto and Jupiter-Pluto oppositions across the horizon. His reported kindness and sense of duty are reflected in Venus' trine to both Jupiter and Saturn. His charisma arises from Sun sextile Moon exactly. And, as two colleagues pointed out this week when looking at the chart without knowing whose it was, this is a person whose intimate relationships were, well, non-ideal at best and probably mostly tied up in duty. And then there's the Mars-Neptune square - both the inner and outer sense of torture, and emotional and charismatic and even magical power, etc.

I like this chart as a possibility. I like it even better than the one Fagan though he was offering with Pluto nearly a sign removed.

[Jim Eshelman]

So how 'bout that crucifixion?

I'd love to be able to say that there was a total solar eclipse over Jerusalem the day of the crucifixion to account for the Sun blacking out. I can't, for the simple reason that solar eclipses are New Moon events, and the crucifixion reportedly occurred on the eve of Passover, which is a New Moon event.

I do find one particularly striking thing, though. In 33 CE, there was a solar eclipse on March 19 - just before the Equinox - at 1:23 PM LMT in Jerusalem. The most likely time for the crucifixion was 15 days later when a total lunar eclipse occurred not quite an hour before sunset - not visible in Jerusalem at the time it occurred (though possibly still in force by the time the Moon rose) about an hour later. (I don't have a way of calculating its visibility.) In any case, it was Passover and a significant astrological event.

I don't know if there is any relationship between the prior solar eclipse and events two weeks later. It's easy to paint a story of how the tale was told in the years following: "Yeah, the crucified him back around when there was that ol' solar eclipse," becomes, "Yeah, the day they crucified him the Sun just blacked out in the sky for a couple of hours." Admittedly that's speculation, and admittedly it probably doesn't matter.

The proposed timing of the crucifixion uses the traditional year of 33 CE - though, due to the earlier birth year, this puts Jesus at 39 years of age, not 33. I've calcualted the chart below for the moment of maximum totality of the lunar eclipse, which was about an hour before sunset when, according to the story, they took him off the cross.

April 3, 33 CE, 5:21 PM LMT, Jerusalem, Israel

[Jim Eshelman]

Looking at the chart as a mundane event, the first thing I notice is that this was the exact 0°00' opposition of Jupiter and Pluto. That this occurs at the exact time of an eclipse (which, in fact, is in close trine-sextile to the opposition) has numerous thematic connections to the event. For those who regard this moment as the crux (literally!) of their faith, it is potentially an aspect of a spiritually profound event. From a purely political point of view, it is the overthrow and execution of a king.

And that was the crime for which he was officially executed - for being, or claiming to be, king of the Jews. The Gospels show the charges levied and the interrogation on the subjet, and the sign nailed upon the cross made the same charge. From the point of view of the local and Roman governments, they were executing a political threat claiming to be the rightful monarch of the land they governed.

Simple transits are fascinating. Jesus (by the charts discussed here) was born with a foreground Jupiter-Pluto opposition, and was executed the day Jupiter and Pluto were exactly opposed. The aspects are broadly, though not exactly, square. (Actually, the natal Jupiter-Pluto midpoint is 18°10' Gemini-Sagittarius, so the transit is partile!) And transiting Mars is just ready to cross the natal Midheaven.

[NOTE: I just realized that I'm posting this on a day when Mars is stationary at 17° Gemini. I wonder how much this chart is going to come under attach LOL.]

Pluto had been squaring natal Pluto over the last two or three years - the recorded period of his ministry. There are a few other aspects I'll let you find on your own. On the other hand, there are things missing. For one, the lunar eclipse doesn't aspect anything in the natal chart, and the Saturn (which roughly squares the eclipse) doesn't either. It's a Mars event, not a Saturn event. (The natal Saturn/Neptune midpoint is 14° Capricorn. I'd like better!)

SECONDARY PROGRSSIONS:
Well, as the Bible says, ask and it shall be given unto you.

Progressed Ascendant for this birthtime is 15°29' Libra, just outside 1° of the eclipse access. If the birthtime were three minutes earlier - the precise rising of Pluto - this would be a completely clean hit.

There's also progressed Moon conjunct progressed Midheaven at 17°16' Cancer - not quite within a degree of transiting Saturn.

But the shining piece - probably what Fagan used to rectify the chart, come to think of it (so we shouldn't give it much attention ultimately) - is progressed Mars 11°29' Pisces, minutes from square the natal Midheaven! (Which, in turn, was conjoined by transiting Mars.)

SOLAR & LUNAR RETURNS
Let's try some techniques that Fagan didn't know about when he produced this chart: Solunars.

For these birth and death data, the final Sidereal Lunar Return occurred March 17, 33 CE, 9:20:25 PM LMT, and is cast for Jerusalem. If one accepts that this was something walked into knowingly and was an act of love (the traditional claim), then the natal planets speak (I'd prefer to see transiting planets in their places):

ASC 9°29' Scorpio
r. Neptune 9°54' Scorpio
IC 13°26' Aquarius
r. Mars 12°12' Aquarius
EP 18°28' Scorpio
r. Venus 20°56' Scorpio

But the event was immediately preceeded by a Demi-Lunar Return occurring March 31, 33 CE, 9:17:44 AM LMT in Jerusalem. It's biggest feature is that it places the Jupiter-Pluto opposition across the horizon and puts Mars just above the Ascendant:

t. Mars 8°15' Gemini
ASC 14°58' Gemini
t. Jupiter 16°45' Gemini
t. Pluto 17°16' Sagittarius
(And, for good measure, t. Mercury 15°16' Pisces.)

The final Solar Return occurred a few months earlier, on December 25, 32 CE, 4:18:18 PM LMT. Cast for Jerusalem it is primarily a publicity chart! (This was the OJ trial of its day!) While the Jupiter-Pluto opposition is broadly foreground (and here it is exactly square natal Pluto!), here are the big features:

s. MC 7°31' Pisces
s. Moon 5°30' Pisces
r. Moon 4°28' Pisces
r. Uranus 5°51' Pisces

s. Asc 25°39' Gemini
s. Mercury 25'06' Sagittarius

QUOTIDIANS
These, of course, depend on a very accurate birth time.

Q1 MC 16°09' Virgo
p. Pluto 15°27' Virgo
r. Pluto 14°54' Virgo
(Again, a birthtime a few minutes earlier would be better - it would put natal Pluto very close, which is even stronger than the progressed Pluto showing. But this is good.)

SQ Asc 19°28' Virgo
r. Saturn 19°38' Pisces

[Veronica]

Thank you Jim.
I came across this post while trying to better understand my son's Saturn Jupiter conjunction with a Capricorn sun.

As a child living in chaos I needed love and heard of a man who loved unconditionally. I was denied church by my father and read the bible on my own. I love Jesus and always knew he loved me too.

Looking at this chart I realized that while I have a loving synastry and composite, others must not. Others may have a horrible synastry.

And I was right. I married a man who hates Jesus, who is a self proclaimed Sovereign Satanist and who I felt and knew was projecting that hate onto my son who shared some similarities to Jesus's chart.

I have been wrestling so long not understanding and wishing that my ex could be a healthy loving father to my son. I am so grateful to have seen this chart.

I personally can vet that from my perspective the relationship shown in my synastry with Jesus is 100% accurate, and yes I am fully aware what that implies, especially regarding our mars/venus conjunction.

I know what it is like to carry and birth and love a lil Cappy with a Jupiter/Saturn conjunction and I have sobbed my soul out every Easter thinking of Mary's anguish. I wish we knew her chart, but I'm gonna guess that she was like me in some ways, and I think this Easter I wont be crying for her loss anymore.

[mikestar13]

This time I need to come at this as a Christian believer. The birth, mission, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ are faith certainties to me and are ultimately beyond history. Not un-historical, but trans-historical. Likewise He is trans-astrological. However, I deem the proposed natal chart and the event chart valid for the understanding of Jesus insofar as he is truly man. It has nothing to say about him insofar as he is truly God.

As to the birth chart, Fagan seems to have it right. I think 39 is likely the correct age at death. I notice John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? This seems a weird way to talk about someone in their early thirties. Wouldn't "not yet forty" make the point even more strongly? ("Barely thirty" would be better yet but I'm not sure that idiom was in use in AD 33 Israel.) But if Jesus' true age were 39 and the "Jews" (leaders of Israel, not Jews generally) were uncertain of his exact age they would be hesitant to say "not yet forty" lest they be proved wrong. But were Jesus the traditional 33, they would be less hesitant.

[Jim Eshelman]

Mike, I don't remember if I mentioned it anywhere in this thread... one of the interesting things about this Ascendant isn't just that it's in Virgo, but, first, that Pluto is exactly rising - something Fagan was unable to see (since he thought Pluto was quite a ways further in the zodiac - no good ephemeris at the time).

Second, the star Vindemiatrix is exactly rising. The name means "Grape Gatherer." I'm sure that will ring some immediate bells for you.

29°14' 12H - Vindemiatrix
29°17' 12H - Pluto

[Veronica]

This time I need to come at this as a Christian believer. The birth, mission, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ are faith certainties to me and are ultimately beyond history. Not un-historical, but trans-historical. Likewise He is trans-astrological. However, I deem the proposed natal chart and the event chart valid for the understanding of Jesus insofar as he is truly man. It has nothing to say about him insofar as he is truly God.

As to the birth chart, Fagan seems to have it right. I think 39 is likely the correct age at death. I notice John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

I do believe they said that because in thier tradition you had to be a male of at least 50 to be allowed to read certain books.

Mike, I was reading about difference types of Christian paths and noticed you said something that intoned one of the differences. You mentioned: birth mission death and resurrection, but not the Immaculate Conception. Is that not important and celebrated in your faith?

I agree that the chart shows Jesus as a man, but not as God, and that maybe because this chart is not the chart of the moment that God Blessed Mary's womb.

That would show in Her chart, and it does if I have rectified it correctly.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Please take religious discussions to Club Aldebaran or PM. If you want to discuss a chart for someone else, please start a new thread.
This thread is about Fagan's and Jim's rectifications of Jesus birthchart based on astrological events.

[Jim Eshelman]

Here are the basic calculations from Mike's Astro program. I've masked Eris since, in the version I have, those calculations aren't implemented yet for this early a date. This is interesting.

Some things to notice: Strength of Pluto, weakness of Mars and Neptune, and the closest / strongest aspects.

Code: Select all

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pl Longitude   Lat   Speed    RA    Decl    Azi     Alt     PVL   Ground
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mo 04Pi29'05" 04S08 +12°49' 334°57' 14S58  78°06' - 9°18' 170°30' + 81% F
Su 05Cp42'05" 00S00 + 1°01' 272°47' 23S40 102°46' -65°40' 113°48' +  4%  
Me 13Cp42'31" 02S01 + 1°44' 281°41' 25S17  92°55' -58°46' 121°12' - 21%  
Ve 20Sc56'37" 04N14 + 0°48' 226°30' 13S16 229°46' -63°49'  69°25' - 55% B
Ma 12Aq11'57" 01S06 + 0°47' 311°51' 19S15  85°14' -30°46' 149°09' -100% B
Ju 20Pi53'45" 01S21 + 0°08' 349°18' 06S08  78°06' + 7°19' 187°29' + 71% F
Sa 19Pi38'26" 02S26 + 0°04' 348°33' 07S37  77°16' + 5°54' 186°03' + 81% F
Ur 05Pi51'36" 00S45 + 0°02' 335°00' 11S19  81°14' - 7°24' 172°31' + 82% F
Ne 09Sc54'46" 01N51 + 0°01' 215°00' 12S10 243°24' -54°53'  57°50' - 99% B
Pl 15Vi28'29" 17N02 - 0°00' 170°46' 22N38 243°35' + 0°42' 359°13' +100% F
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Class 1 Aspects          Class 2 Aspects         Class 3 Aspects     
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mo sx Su 01°13'  97%      Mo tr Ne 05°26'  45%       Su co Me 08°00'  34%
Mo co Ur 01°23'  98%      Su sx Ne 04°13'  66%       Me sx Ve 07°14'   6%
Su oc Ve 00°15'  99%      xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx       Me sx Ju 07°11'   7%
Su sx Ur 00°10' 100%      Me sx Sa 05°56'  35%       xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Me tr Pl 01°46'  94%      Me sx Ne 03°48'  73%       xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Ve tr Ju 00°03' 100%      Ve sx Pl 05°28'  44%       Ur op Pl 09°37'   7%
Ve tr Sa 01°18'  97%      Ju op Pl 05°25'  69%                           
Ma sq Ne 01°19'  97% M    Sa op Pl 04°10'  81%                           
Ju co Sa 01°15'  98%      Ur tr Ne 04°03'  69%                           
                          Ne sx Pl 05°34'  43% 

[mikestar13]

First of all, the Fagan chart for Jesus is convincing astrologically. The history is confused, see these articles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_of_birth_of_Jesus, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod_the_Great. Matthew and Luke agree that Jesus was born under the rule of Herod the Great. Best evidence for the date of Herod's death is the year of Rome (AUC) 750 (though there is some dispute). When Dionysius Exiguus invented AD/BC dating in the sixth century AD, he used AUC 754 as Herod's date of death. There are secular sources concerning Herod's death, though not all are in agreement. At any rate, it is obvious Jesus must have been born before Herod's death, and a significant time before it, not just a couple of weeks.

[Jim Eshelman]

I agree with Fagan that "Herod's eclipse" - the one Josephus said happened right before Herod died - was surely March 23, 5 BC. It happened before Passover which, in 5 BC, was April 22. If this is the correct eclipse (as it pretty much must be) then Herod's death was between these two dates. Within that time, I've astrologically constructed pproximately April 1, 5 BC, or 15 months after the proposed birth of Jesus.

[mikestar13]

Jim, I definitely concur with you and Cyril on this.

[mikestar13]

The natal chart as calculated by Astro 0.2:

Code: Select all

 +-------------12Cn02-----------11Ge41-----------12Ta06--------------+
 |Er 26Cn33 01°52'|                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 12Le49-----------+----------------+----------------+-----------12Ar53
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |          Jesus Christ           |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |              Natal              |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |  25 Dec 7 BCE OS 22:20:00 LMT   |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |        Bethlehem, Israel        |Ju 20Pi54 07°29'|
 |                |                                 |Sa 19Pi38 06°03'|
 |   Ep 08Vi01    |      31N42'15" 035E12'22"       |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |Pl 15Vi29 29°15'|           UT 19:59:11           |                |
 13Vi14-----------+                                 +-----------13Pi14
 |                |         RAMC 66°45'24"          |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |          OE 23°41'52"           |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |         SVP 03Ar08'47"          |Ur 05Pi52 22°31'|
 |                |                                 |Mo 04Pi29 20°30'|
 |                |         Sidereal Zodiac         |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |         Campanus Houses         |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |       Speculative per Fagan     |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 12Li53-----------+----------------+----------------+-----------12Aq49
 |                |                |                |Me 13Cp43 01°12'|
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |Ve 20Sc57 09°25'|                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |   Vx 28Cp56    |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |Su 05Cp42 23°48'|                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |Ne 09Sc54 27°50'|                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |Ma 12Aq12 29°09'|
 +-------------12Sc06-----------11Sg41-----------12Cp02--------------+


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pl Longitude   Lat   Speed    RA    Decl    Azi     Alt     PVL   Ground
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mo 04Pi29'13" 04S08 +12°49' 334°57' 14S58 258°06' - 9°18' 170°30' + 81% F
Su 05Cp42'09" 00S00 + 1°01' 272°47' 23S40 282°44' -65°40' 113°48' +  4%  
Me 13Cp42'36" 02S01 + 1°44' 281°41' 25S17 272°54' -58°46' 121°12' - 21%  
Ve 20Sc56'40" 04N14 + 0°48' 226°30' 13S16  49°47' -63°49'  69°25' - 55% B
Ma 12Aq11'59" 01S06 + 0°47' 311°51' 19S15 265°13' -30°46' 149°09' -100% B
Ju 20Pi53'50" 01S21 + 0°08' 349°18' 06S08 258°06' + 7°19' 187°29' + 71% F
Sa 19Pi38'26" 02S26 + 0°04' 348°33' 07S37 257°16' + 5°54' 186°03' + 81% F
Ur 05Pi51'42" 00S45 + 0°02' 335°00' 11S19 261°14' - 7°24' 172°31' + 82% F
Ne 09Sc54'24" 01N51 + 0°01' 215°00' 12S10  63°25' -54°53'  57°50' - 99% B
Pl 15Vi29'29" 17N02 - 0°00' 170°47' 22N37  63°35' + 0°41' 359°15' +100% F
Er 26Cn33'15" 43N43 - 0°02' 131°03' 64N04  30°38' +39°21' 301°52' - 24%  
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Class 1 Aspects          Class 2 Aspects         Class 3 Aspects     
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mo sx  Su 01°13'  97%     Mo tr  Ne 05°25'  45%     Su co  Me 08°00'  34%
Mo co  Ur 01°22'  98%     Su sx  Ne 04°12'  67%     Me sx  Ve 07°14'   6%
Su oc  Ve 00°15'  99%     Me sx  Sa 05°56'  35%     Me sx  Ju 07°11'   7%
Su sx  Ur 00°10' 100%     Me sx  Ne 03°48'  72%     Sa tr  Er 06°55'  14%
Me tr  Pl 01°47'  94%     Ve sx  Pl 05°27'  45%     Ur op  Pl 09°38'   7%
Me op  Er 00°40'  99% M   Ve tr  Er 05°37'  42%                          
Ve tr  Ju 00°03' 100%     Ju op  Pl 05°24'  69%                          
Ve tr  Sa 01°18'  97%     Ju tr  Er 05°39'  41%                          
Ma sq  Ne 01°19'  97% M   Sa op  Pl 04°09'  81%                          
Ju co  Sa 01°15'  98%     Ur tr  Ne 04°03'  69%                          
                          Ne sx  Pl 05°35'  42%                          
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Jim Eshelman]

I do find that acutely background Mars as compelling as many other (more dramatic) features of the chart.

[mikestar13]

I do find that acutely background Mars as compelling as many other (more dramatic) features of the chart.

I note that Mars is unaspected save for the mundane square with also deeply background Neptune. OTOH Venus, which is only mildly background, is tightly integrated into the aspect structure. Definitely the right balance for the Prince of Peace ! I suspect Ma - Ne was triggered the day he drove the money changers from the temple.

[Jim Eshelman]

Yes. But there are other Mars-Neptune traits that fit, such as the ability to inspire and hold a following as if purely an act of will. Also (to be simple), evengelisn. (And more. I'm not fully awake, though on my way to the office.)

[SteveS]

Mike, when you have the time, I would like your opinions on this youtube documentary. Thanks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTCVh4CXyi0&t=722

[mikestar13]

Don't have time to watch it now, but I can tonight. The bottom line question. Did they find human remains in Jesus' tomb? It is not at all unprecedented for family tombs to include a tomb of a family member known to be dead but whose body is unavailable (lost at sea is the most common cause). It must be noted that Jews, Muslims, and atheists are just as interested in disproving the Resurrection as Christians are in proving it. (Eastern religions don't seem to care one way or the other.) I withhold judgement until I have a chance to view the video in full.

[mikestar13]

Horoscope of Jesus Christ as calculated by TMSA 0.4, with Sedna included:

Code: Select all

 +-------------12Cn02-----------11Ge41-----------12Ta06--------------+
 |Er 26Cn33 01°52'|                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 12Le49-----------+----------------+----------------+-----------12Ar53
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |          Jesus Christ           |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |              Natal              |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |  25 Dec 7 BCE OS 22:20:00 LMT   |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |        Bethlehem, Israel        |Ju 20Pi54 07°29'|
 |                |                                 |Sa 19Pi38 06°03'|
 |   Ep 08Vi01    |      31N42'16" 035E12'22"       |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |Pl 15Vi29 29°15'|           UT 19:59:11           |                |
 13Vi14-----------+                                 +-----------13Pi14
 |                |         RAMC 66°45'24"          |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |          OE 23°41'52"           |                |
 |                |                                 |Ur 05Pi52 22°31'|
 |                |         SVP 03Ar08'47"          |Mo 04Pi29 20°30'|
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |         Sidereal Zodiac         |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |         Campanus Houses         |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |      Speculative per Fagan      |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 12Li53-----------+----------------+----------------+-----------12Aq49
 |                |                |                |Ma 12Aq12 29°09'|
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |Ve 20Sc57 09°25'|                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |Se 03Cp35 22°54'|                |
 |                |                |Su 05Cp42 23°48'|                |
 |Ne 09Sc54 27°50'|                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |Me 13Cp43 01°12'|
 +-------------12Sc06-----------11Sg41-----------12Cp02--------------+


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pl Longitude   Lat   Speed    RA    Decl    Azi     Alt     PVL    Ang G
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mo 04Pi29'13" 04S08 +12°49' 334°57' 14S58 258°06' - 9°18' 170°30'  90% F
Su 05Cp42'09" 00S00 + 1°01' 272°47' 23S40 282°44' -65°40' 113°48'  52%  
Me 13Cp42'36" 02S01 + 1°44' 281°41' 25S17 272°54' -58°46' 121°12'  39%  
Ve 20Sc56'40" 04N14 + 0°48' 226°30' 13S16  49°47' -63°49'  69°25'  22% B
Ma 12Aq11'59" 01S06 + 0°47' 311°51' 19S15 265°13' -30°46' 149°09'   0% B
Ju 20Pi53'50" 01S21 + 0°08' 349°18' 06S08 258°06' + 7°19' 187°29'  85% F
Sa 19Pi38'26" 02S26 + 0°04' 348°33' 07S37 257°16' + 5°54' 186°03'  90% F
Ur 05Pi51'42" 00S45 + 0°02' 335°00' 11S19 261°14' - 7°24' 172°31'  91% F
Ne 09Sc54'24" 01N51 + 0°01' 215°00' 12S10  63°25' -54°53'  57°50'   0% B
Pl 15Vi29'29" 17N02 - 0°00' 170°47' 22N37  63°35' + 0°41' 359°15' 100% F
Er 26Cn33'15" 43N43 - 0°02' 131°03' 64N04  30°38' +39°21' 301°52'  38%  
Se 03Cp34'39" 05N32 + 0°00' 270°27' 18S10 296°42' -64°42' 112°54'  54%  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Class 1 Aspects          Class 2 Aspects         Class 3 Aspects     
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mo sx Su 01°13'  97%     Mo tr Ne 05°25'  45%     Su co Me 08°00'  34%  
Mo co Ur 01°22'  98%     Su sx Ne 04°12'  67%     Me sx Ve 07°14'   6%  
Mo sx Se 00°55'  98%     Me sx Sa 05°56'  35%     Me sx Ju 07°11'   7%  
Su oc Ve 00°15'  99%     Me sx Ne 03°48'  72%     Sa tr Er 06°55'  14%  
Su sx Ur 00°10' 100%     Ve sx Pl 05°27'  45%     Ur op Pl 09°38'   7%  
Su co Se 00°55'  98% M   Ve tr Er 05°37'  42%     Ne sx Se 06°20'  27%  
Me tr Pl 01°47'  94%     Ju op Pl 05°24'  69%                           
Me op Er 00°40'  99% M   Ju tr Er 05°39'  41%                           
Ve tr Ju 00°03' 100%     Sa op Pl 04°09'  81%                           
Ve tr Sa 01°18'  97%     Ur tr Ne 04°03'  69%                           
Ma sq Ne 01°19'  97% M   Ne sx Pl 05°35'  42%                           
Ju co Sa 01°15'  98%                                                    
Ur sx Se 02°17'  90%                                                    
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, sacrifice won't be the only Sedna keyword and probably won't be the primary one, but sacrifice is a very Sedna theme.

[Jim Eshelman]

Sun conjunct Sedna ecliptically and (partile) in mundo. Fascinating.

[Jim Eshelman]

Code: Select all

Pl Longitude   Lat   Speed    RA    Decl    Azi     Alt     PVL    Ang G
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Er 26Cn33'15" 43N43 - 0°02' 131°03' 64N04  30°38' +39°21' 301°52'  38%  
Se 03Cp34'39" 05N32 + 0°00' 270°27' 18S10 296°42' -64°42' 112°54'  54%  

BTW, I suspect the Eris and Sedna ephemerides have been improved since Solar Fire 8. Here are the numbers SF8 produces:

Code: Select all

Pl Longitude   Lat   Speed    RA    Decl    Azi     Alt     PVL 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Er 26Cn28'52" 43N43 - 0°02' 130°57' 64N06  30°36' +39°21' 301°50'
Se 03Cp27'58" 05N33 + 0°00' 270°20' 18S09 296°48' -64°42' 112°53'

[mikestar13]

Improved ephemerises of Eris and especially Sedna are quite likely, especially for a chart so long removed in time. A chart cast for 1/1/2000 would likely not show anything, as the discrepancies would be well under one second.

[Jim Eshelman]

For those interested, I just got reminded that this Fagan article from the 1930s IIRC was reprinted (serialized) in American Astrology in December 1976 through February 1977. As hard as that might be to find, it's probably the easiest place for people to find it.

BTW, I've never done a Needs Hierarchy on this chart. It's quite interesting! Besides the 99% score for Sedna, we get some kinda rebel! <g>

100% Pluto
98% Moon Uranus
----------------------
90% Venus Mars Saturn Neptune
----------------------
85% Jupiter
52% Sun
39% Mercury

I think I haven't mentioned the fixed stars before. Most importantly, besides the EXACTLY rising Pluto, Vindemiatrix - the beautiful boy, or sign of the grape harvest - was exactly rising. Jupiter was also in RA opposition to Vindemiatrix, crossing the meridian with it, and - shockingly for a star in early Gemini 90° away, Jupiter and Sturn both were in RA conjunction with Polaris!

Moon rose at the same time as Fomalhaut, one of the Royal Stars, at set at the same time as Markab (the brightest star in Pegasus). Sun rose with Alpha Sag and culminated with Altair. Venus set concurrent with the Galactic Center.

[Veronica]

As a child, I absolutely hated Easter. I saw the crosses with human beings NAILED to them and it made me so sick inside to think that people would do such a thing to another person. I always wished that Mary would take her son and run away, as far as she could go so they wouldn't murder her son. That's exactly what I would have done.It was terrible for me as a child to learn how dark humanities past was.
Knowing how horrible humans can be, how I could be, I am grateful that I have loving friends who encourage me to be my best, and not my worst.

[mikestar13]

I can relate to that reaction, Veronica, though it didn't hit me quite that way. And doubtless Mary would have saved Jesus from the cross were it in her power. I rather doubt the Roman soldiers or the largely hostile crowd would permit it, and the Romans had some very pointed arguments (their swords).
But I fully relate to the shear brutality of it, and of humans' inhumanity to other humans in general. The crucifixion typified this brutality in full measure. This event and millions of other equally terrible but mostly less dramatic events, prove this: if damnation there be, we humans have earned it a million times over. Yet the Love at the Heart of the Universe forgives us. In Jesus' own words "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
In the event you should wish to hear additional thoughts of mine, I would welcome a PM from you.