Pluto true mundane position

[Daniel148]

Hello ,
In my natal chart Pluto has latitude 17°22'32" N
I was born at 48n00 northern cordinate
Pluto is conjunct by parallel of declination with Asc with orb of 1°6' by declination
Pluto by standart calculation of houses in the end of the 2H .
Could be the true mundane position of Pluto in 1H ?
How to find true mundane position for planets with big latitude in SolarFire 9 software ?

[ODdOnLifeItself]

It very well COULD be...

Look at Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's horoscope as an example. Graphic snippets are linked, below...

Pluto appears some 42° or so before the Ascendant, when measured in ecliptical longitude. (not even remotely conjunct)

In Prime Vertical Longitude, it's 1° 39' after the Ascendant. (relatively tightly conjunct)

http://www.james-alexander.de/PVL_1.PNG

http://www.james-alexander.de/PVL_2.PNG

[Daniel148]

Thanks ,
i know this example of Sir Conan but in his case the ecliptical latitude which is southern and being born in north which are opposite
allowed such angularity but in my case ecliptical latitude is northern and i was born relatively in the north
so this effect might be nullified . i would be glad to know how to check this out in SolarFire software .

[SteveS]

Daniel asked:

How to find true mundane position for planets with big latitude in SolarFire 9 software?

Daniel, try this with Solarfire.
1: Highlight your Natal Chart or any chart. 2: Then Keystroke F-6. 3: Then under the list of “Chart Type to Generate” choose (highlight) “Z-Analogue Prime Vert” 4: Then keystroke the OK button.

This will generate a chart giving the true mundane planetary positions (orbs) to the angles, as well as true mundane aspects. Let me know if this works for you. I always try and remember to check true mundane positions of charts so I leave Solarfire defaulted to “Z-Analogue Prime Vertical” using the F-6 Key.

[Daniel148]

Thank you Steve ,
It works and i see my Pluto move from the end of the 2H closer to the begining of it so not much of a deffernce .
How do you interpret a trine between venus and jupiter with orb of 5 degrees turns in mundane aspect to exact trine with orb of 37 minutes .
And another thing an exact opposition between mercury and pluto with orb less than 1 degree becomes in mundane aspect to an opposition
with a wide orb of almost 5 degrees ?
It seems like in this 2 cases mundane aspects are more favourable in my case .
What aspects are more important mundane or ecliptic and what is the difference between them ?

[Jim Eshelman]

Welcome to Solunars, Daniel.

You didn't give your birth data, or I could give you more concrete information. However, here is an easy solution: A member of this site, Mikestar13, is developing a free astrological program called TMSA ("Time Matters Sidereal Astrology"). You can download and install it here:
https://solunars.com/viewforum.php?f=60
All charts show the PV longitude and correct house placement of all planets.

I'm guessing that if Pluto, at 17N declination and your latitude, looks like it's in 2H, then it will be spatially (PV longitude) located as if it were about 3° earlier in longitude. (The parallel of declination isn't a direct factor for the question you asked.)

Meanwhile, Steve has helped you with Solar Fire directions.

[Jim Eshelman]

How do you interpret a trine between venus and jupiter with orb of 5 degrees turns in mundane aspect to exact trine with orb of 37 minutes .

I'm not sure that mundane trines are valid, i.e., I've only been able to substantiate that the conjunctions, oppositions, and squares are valid that way. Nonetheless, the general rule on "aspect is wider ecliptically and closer in mundo" is really simple: Go with the closer one. No change in interpretation.

The principle is this: Aspects show connection between two planets. The orb shows the amplitude (intensity) of that connection. Consider that there are traits that we woulld call Venus-Jupiter-ness. As Venus' elongation from Jupiter increases around the 360° of the circle, it moves in and out of aspect and this amplitude rises and falls. If, by one legitimate way, you have the Venus-Jupiter relationship at an 80% strength, while in another legitimate way you have the Venus-Jupiter relationship at a 95% strength, it's not two different aspects - it's one relationship, one set of character qualities, that are at 95% strength.

Similarly with your Mercury-Pluto: In this case, the ecliptical is closer. Go with the closer.

BTW, the TMSA program I recommended to you above does all of this calculation for you and displays the closer of the two in the aspect table.

What aspects are more important mundane or ecliptic and what is the difference between them ?

As far as I can tell, there is no difference - they are equally important. However, I can only substantiate that the hard aspects are valid in mundo. For the most part, the interpretation is identical, though it may be that the mundane aspects are more "eventish." This interpretation is based on observation of charts and lives, but the theory of this would be that the mundane framework - the house framework, so to speak - has always been considered by astrologers to manifest outwardly. However, I don't think this at all impedes their description of character.

See this thread for discussion of that topic:
https://solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=4540

[Daniel148]

Hello Jim ,
Thank you , glad to be here .
My birth data : 16.05.1984
Donetsk
Ukrain .

[SteveS]

Daniel, if you will post your birth data, Mike, Jim, and I can help you see more important data for your Natal.

[Jim Eshelman]

My birth data : 16.05.1984
Donetsk
Ukrain .

Time?

[Daniel148]

Steve ,
sorry here is with the time :
16.05.1984
14:30 PM
Donetsk
Ukrain .

[Jim Eshelman]

Thanks. The really exciting aspect in your chart is the nearly exact, very tightly angular Moon-Uranus conjunction in Scorpio but, of course, there are others. As you noted, your Mercury-Pluto opposition is most exact ecliptically.

Here is your chart as calculated by Mike's TMSA software (linked above) below the chart "wheel" are valuable tables that show various data on each planet (including its relative angularity) and the relative strength of aspects (ecliptical and mundane interwoven). The chart diagram does place the planets proportionately in the houses according to PV longitude, rather than by longitude, and the PV longitude is given on the chart wheel next to the zodiacal longitude. - You can scroll inside the green text below, or save the whole content off to Notepad, where it will display well.

Code: Select all

 +-------------15Ge11-----------16Ta40-----------19Ar48--------------+
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 |                |                |                |Se 13Ar32 20°59'|
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 |                |                |                |Me 06Ar10 14°17'|
 |                |                |Su 01Ta13 12°47'|                |
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 |                |                |Ve 22Ar59 03°29'|                |
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 17Cn03-----------+----------------+----------------+-----------21Pi46
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 |                |                                 |Er 21Pi23 22°34'|
 |                |            Daniel148            |                |
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 |                |              Natal              |                |
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 |                |    16 May 1984 14:30:00 MSD     |                |
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 |                |        Donetsk, Ukraine         |                |
 |   Ep 13Le26    |                                 |                |
 |                |      48N00'57" 037E48'05"       |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |           UT 10:30:00           |                |
 20Le31-----------+                                 +-----------20Aq31
 |                |         RAMC 69°37'15"          |                |
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 |                |          OE 23°26'32"           |                |
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 |                |         SVP 05Pi28'58"          |                |
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 |                |         Sidereal Zodiac         |                |
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 |                |         Campanus Houses         |                |
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 21Vi46-----------+----------------+----------------+-----------17Cp03
 |                |                |Mo 17Sc25 00°45'|                |
 |                |                |Ur 17Sc43 01°10'|                |
 |                |Ma 24Li30 05°16'|                |                |
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 |Pl 05Li32 09°34'|                |                |                |
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 |                |                |Ne 06Sg25 21°29'|                |
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 |Sa 17Li35 27°13'|                |                |Ju 18Sg01 02°51'|
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 +-------------19Li48-----------16Sc40-----------15Sg11--------------+


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pl Longitude   Lat   Speed    RA    Decl    Azi     Alt     PVL    Ang G
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mo 17Sc24'43" 00S30 +13°42' 250°21' 22S43 358°25' -64°41'  90°45' 100% F
Su 01Ta12'48" 00S00 + 0°58'  53°24' 19N12 210°09' +58°19' 252°47'  38%  
Me 06Ar09'38" 03S20 + 0°46'  29°44' 08N35 233°48' +38°12' 224°17'  16% B
Ve 22Ar58'59" 00S56 + 1°14'  45°19' 16N10 220°25' +52°25' 243°29'   3% B
Ma 24Li29'56" 00S22 - 0°22' 226°27' 17S50  40°02' -54°24'  65°16'   7% B
Ju 18Sg00'46" 00N09 - 0°03' 283°36' 22S42 301°04' -53°00' 122°51'  36%  
Sa 17Li35'25" 02N36 - 0°04' 220°29' 13S00  44°32' -47°26'  57°13'   1% B
Ur 17Sc42'59" 00N02 - 0°02' 250°45' 22S14 357°35' -64°12'  91°10' 100% F
Ne 06Sg25'13" 01N13 - 0°01' 271°01' 22S14 318°57' -59°04' 111°29'  56%  
Pl 05Li32'08" 17N23 - 0°01' 214°00' 04N49  41°24' -28°39'  39°34'  26%  
Er 21Pi22'54" 18S20 + 0°01'  21°43' 10S40 229°55' +17°39' 202°34'  54%  
Se 13Ar32'21" 11S21 + 0°01'  39°20' 03N26 219°57' +38°24' 230°59'   5% B
------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Class 1 Aspects          Class 2 Aspects         Class 3 Aspects     
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mo co Ur 00°18' 100%     Mo tr Er 03°58'  70%     Su co Ve 08°14'  30%  
Me tr Ne 00°16' 100%     Su op Ma 06°43'  53%     Me co Se 07°23'  43%  
Me op Pl 00°38' 100%     Su oc Ju 01°48'  62%     Ve co Se 09°27'  10%  
Ve op Ma 01°31'  97%     Ve tr Ju 04°58'  54%     Ma sx Ju 06°29'  23%  
Ju sx Sa 00°25' 100%     Ve op Sa 05°24'  69%     Ur oc Pl 02°49'  11%  
Ne sx Pl 00°53'  98%     Ve oc Ne 01°34'  71%     Ne tr Se 07°07'   9%  
Ne sq Er 01°05'  98% M   Ma co Sa 06°55'  50%     Pl op Se 08°00'  34%  
                         Ju sq Er 03°22'  78%                           
                         Ju tr Se 04°28'  62%                           
                         Sa op Se 04°03'  82%                           
                         Ur tr Er 03°40'  74%                           
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Jim Eshelman]

Here's a simpler version of the tables - fewer planets, so the aspect list is simpler. Notice that (of the aspects I chose to consider) there are no mundane aspects closer than their ecliptical counterparts (otherwise there would have been a trailing M in the aspect list).

Code: Select all

Pl Longitude   Lat   Speed    RA    Decl    Azi     Alt     PVL    Ang G
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mo 17Sc24'43" 00S30 +13°42' 250°21' 22S43 358°25' -64°41'  90°45' 100% F
Su 01Ta12'48" 00S00 + 0°58'  53°24' 19N12 210°09' +58°19' 252°47'  38%  
Me 06Ar09'38" 03S20 + 0°46'  29°44' 08N35 233°48' +38°12' 224°17'  16%  
Ve 22Ar58'59" 00S56 + 1°14'  45°19' 16N10 220°25' +52°25' 243°29'   3%  
Ma 24Li29'56" 00S22 - 0°22' 226°27' 17S50  40°02' -54°24'  65°16'   7%  
Ju 18Sg00'46" 00N09 - 0°03' 283°36' 22S42 301°04' -53°00' 122°51'  36%  
Sa 17Li35'25" 02N36 - 0°04' 220°29' 13S00  44°32' -47°26'  57°13'   1%  
Ur 17Sc42'59" 00N02 - 0°02' 250°45' 22S14 357°35' -64°12'  91°10' 100% F
Ne 06Sg25'13" 01N13 - 0°01' 271°01' 22S14 318°57' -59°04' 111°29'  56%  
Pl 05Li32'08" 17N23 - 0°01' 214°00' 04N49  41°24' -28°39'  39°34'  26%  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Class 1 Aspects          Class 2 Aspects         Class 3 Aspects     
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mo co Ur 00°18' 100%     Su op Ma 06°43'  53%     Su co Ve 08°14'  30%  
Me tr Ne 00°16' 100%     Su oc Ju 01°48'  62%     Ma sx Ju 06°29'  23%  
Me op Pl 00°38' 100%     Ve tr Ju 04°58'  54%     
Ve op Ma 01°31'  97%     Ve op Sa 05°24'  69%                           
Ju sx Sa 00°25' 100%     Ve oc Ne 01°34'  71%                           
Ne sx Pl 00°53'  98%     Ma co Sa 06°55'  50%                           
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Daniel148]

Thanks Jim ,
i think despite of the fact that there is no change in aspects in my case it was important
to check if some planets change houses and it is clear now Jupiter is not in the 4th house but in the 5th
and Saturn instead of in the 3rd is placed in the 2nd house and i think both of those displacements are
very important .

Thank you all guys
and have a nice day !

[Jim Eshelman]

i think despite of the fact that there is no change in aspects in my case it was important
to check if some planets change houses and it is clear now Jupiter is not in the 4th house but in the 5th and Saturn instead of in the 3rd is placed in the 2nd house and i think both of those displacements are very important.

In fairness, those changes are the result of the Campanus house system, not the mundane vs. ecliptical question itself. Looking at your chart above, both the PV longitudes AND ecliptical longitudes but your Jupiter in 5H and your Saturn in 2H.

If you think these are better placements, step 1 is to just start using Campanus.

BTW, a general rule of thumb: Campanus tends to push things more toward the horizon than the meridian (like your two examples), while Placidus, Regiomontanus, and (to a lesser extent) Koch tend to push them more toward the meridian. Placidus chart collections tend to have piles of planets in houses 3 & 4, 9 & 10. Campanus chart collections tend to pile planets up in houses 12 & 1, 6 & 7.

[Daniel148]

Following what you have said Jim i did some rectification for my birth chart not long time ago and because my time of birth
was before than very exact i used mainly solar arc directions and i could figure out easly
which house system worked best for my chart and it was Placidus .
I guess there is no shift in Saturn and Jupiter and they should stay in 3rd and 5th houses
i did not figure out that the shift happened because of the Campanus house system .
Thank you for this remark ,
Daniel .

[Jim Eshelman]

...i used mainly solar arc directions and i could figure out easly which house system worked best for my chart and it was Placidus.

I'm not sure how you did this since Solar Arcs have nothing to do with houses

Regardless, since you were interested in mundane positions, here are your house positions ('mundoscope' so to speak - to use the term very loosely) using semi-arc proportioning a la Placidus.

2 - Pluto 22°07'
3 - Saturn 4°59', Mars 11°12'
4 - Moon 0°33', Uranus 0°52', Neptune 16°27', Jupiter 25°59'
8 - Mercury 23°59'
9 - Venus 9°53', Sun 17°03'

For side-by-side comparison, here are the prime vertical positions. You can see how Campanus moves things away from the meridian toward the horizon, and Placidus moves them away from the horizon toward the meridian:

2 - Pluto 9°35', Saturn 27°13'
3 - Mars 5°16'
4 - Moon 0°45', Uranus 1°10', Neptune 21°29'
5 - Jupiter 2°51'
8 - Mercury 14°17'
9 - Venus 2°29', Sun 12°47'

[Daniel148]

Hello Jim !

About the using SA directions and best house system - i knew my time of birth before the rectification was very exact
so while rectifing to be extra sure the birth time is correct i saw important life events being predicted using planets to house cusps using SA directions with great accuracy with placidus other house systems did not give good results . The angles do not change between house systems so SA directions to angles helped to be sure TOB is correct but the intermediary house cusps were good in predictions only in placidus . (I hope i answered your question )

If predictions work better with placidus than companus house system should not i consider
the mundoscope with placidus ?

[Jim Eshelman]

Just to answer your question (and not attempt to persuade you), I have zero faith in house cusps as objective points on the ecliptic that can receive directions.

OTOH, I'm pretty sure another forum member, ODdOnLifeItself, would say that he has great confidence in them in the Topocentric system - and Topocentric cusps are nearly identical with Placidus.

I'm not the one that has to be satisfied with your birth time or the methods you think are valid and want to rely on - but, since you are here and specifically engaging me on the topic, I need to say that I think the data from which you are drawing conclusions is invalid data - that houses cusps may not even exist in any system (especially as ecliptical points) and I've never seen data that would persuade me they are subject to receiving directions.

[ODdOnLifeItself]

Using Topocentric Houses, I notice constantly that primary directions (and often transits/progressions) to the cusps (powerpoints) of a chart at events that are relevant to the "standard" meanings of the houses. [I can only vouch for Topocentric, though Placidus would show it often, but with too large of orbs.]

In this system [Alexander Marr, Isaac Starkman, Juan Estadella, etc.], the directions are held to extremely tight orbs... 0° 6' as maximal orb for all aspects except conjunction/opposition, and 0° 11' of arc for those.

When Mars (male) contacted my 3rd House cusp/powerpoint (siblings) (0° 6' orb), my Brother was born.

When the Sun (male) contacted my 3rd House cusp (0° 4' orb), my other Brother was born.

When Neptune (mourning) contacted the 8th House cusp (death) (0° 1' orb), my adoptive Mother died. (saddest event of my life)

When Venus (relationship/women) contacted my 5th House cusp (giving love) (0° 1' orb), I met my future Wife.

When my Ascendant (me) conjoined my Venus (my love) (0° 0' orb), we got married.

When the 8th cusp (joint monies) opposed my Venus (luxury) (0° 3' orb), I received $28,000 from an investment. (only $18k expected)

When Mars (male) contacted my 5th House cusp (children) (0° 1' orb), my son Jimi was born.

When Jupiter (travel) contacted my 9th House cusp (foreign things) (0° 5' orb), I moved overseas.

When Saturn (hardship, separation) contacted my 3rd House cusp (siblings) (0° 3' orb), my Brother suddenly dies, unexpectedly.

When Venus (luxury) opposed Jupiter (0° 1' orb), I got a significant job promotion.

When Venus (luxury, enjoyment) contacted my 9th House cusp (foreign things) (0° 6' orb), we made a whole-family vacation to Italy.

When the Moon (women, maternal figures) contacted my 8th House cusp (death) (0° 5' orb), my ex-Wife died.

When Mars contacts the 12th, one of the images brought to mind might be mandated seclusion. When Mars contacted my 12th House cusp (0° 5' orb), I was mandated into quarantine by the health department, here in Germany.

When the Sun (important males, father figures) contacted my 8th House cusp (death) (0° 3' orb), my Father-in-Law died.

If you're good in statistics, factor the likelihood that relevant planets contact the relevant (in standard meaning) cusps at events, to just scant minutes of arc, across entire event lists.

[Daniel148]

Hello ,

My expirience with solar arc directions worked well enough for me with accuracy of 30 minutes .
I played with primary directions in solar fire used topocentric house system with Naibod arc
but predictions are not exact at all about 3 to 4 years of inaccuracy .
May be i am missing something in Solarfire definitions or maybe there are many types of predictive
metods and we do not have enough tools to decide which chart is sensitive to which metod unless
you play with all the predictive tools an find out what best works for you .
Any way it is realy intresting how exact all the predctions worked out in your chart
but the big question is if primary directions work accuratly for most of the people ?
or at least for 30 % of studied charts .

[ODdOnLifeItself]

There are various ways/systems of calculating primary directions. I have only found one way that consistently has the appropriate symbolism to just scant minutes of arc.

The problem is...that primary directions have a drastic change of when aspects mature, by just changing the birthtime a matter of seconds.

Unless that "magical time" is found, the primary directions will be as misleading as "leading." For those that have a relatively tight birthtime, it is easier to find that specific time. My birth certificate says I was born at 6:18 am. I was actually born at 6:16:44 am. At that time (1 min 16 secs from the B.C.), *ALL* the primary directions work across all my events in my event list (now at about 30 dated events).

If we use 6:15:44 am, the PDs are "crap." If we use 6:16:44 am, everything lines up perfectly, as in my list above. Move to 6:17:44 am, again "crap." It's that sensitive...but that very "weakness" is a strength when rectifying, since it becomes like a fine-adjustment. Isaac Starkman wrote a program (Polaris) that will take a given chart with a dated list of specific events and search through time, second-by-second, until it finds the best times in terms of correct symbolism for specific types of aspects. Checking those using other systems (PSSR aspects, lunar cycles, Age Harmonics, etc.) normally corroborates one time well above the other potential times, given from Polaris.

I have plenty of other charts with birthtimes from birth certificates, that when rectified just a matter of a minute or two and voila, everything lines up. This is the normal way that it goes.

To understand which method of Primary Directions works best and to see examples, I'd recommend Juan Estadella's book on predictive astrology. It's available online (for free) at the following address: https://juanestadella.com/Predictive_As ... dition.pdf

If you have a relatively close birthtime (ie. documented and at least quasi-functional), and have a list of dated events (a dozen or so, depending on how narrow of a window we have for your birthtime) that you wouldn't mind sharing, I would be glad to do the work to help you find the exact time that your primary directions exactly line up. More, I can't generously offer.

Each of the following are types of events and Polaris has specific aspects (which are weighted) connected to each type of event. [For death of Father for instance, the maximum of 25 points goes to Saturn-MC aspects,with other correctly-sybolized aspects getting some proportion of that 25 points...] How many events are needed depends on which chart. For Kenny Haining, just two or three events at the program finds his exact birthtime instantly. For some, with 20 events, it's not so 100% clear.

1 Birth of Brother
2 Birth of Sister
3 Birth of Son
4 Birth of Daughter
5 Birth of Grandson
6 Birth of Granddaughter
7 Marriage/Engagement/Love-affair (M)
8 Marriage/Engagement/Love-affiair (F)
9 Marriage of Son/Daughter
10 Divorce/Separation
11 Death of Father/Grandfather
12 Death of Mother/Grandmother
13 Death of Son
14 Death of Daughter
15 Death of Wife/Friend
16 Death of Husband/Friend
17 Death of Brother
18 Death of Sister
19 Death
20 Assassination/Suicide
21 Success/Elected
22 Promotion/Job
23 Failure
24 Resignation/Retirement
25 Travel Overseas (positive)
26 Travel (positive)
27 Travel (negative)
28 Mobilization
29 Demobilization/Release
30 Arrest
31 Accident
32 Hopsitalization/Illness
33 Violence
34 Intrigue
35 Losses
36 Gambling Losses
37 Gambling Gains
38 Graduation/Publication
39 Move Home
40 Promotion Army
41 Asc/MC +
42 Asc/MC -
43 House 2/8 +
44 House 2/8 -
45 House 3/9 +
46 House 3/9 -
47 House 5/11 +
48 House 5/11 -
49 House 6/12 +
50 House 6/12 -

[Daniel148]

I would like you to help me find the right TOB .
I am pritty sure my time of birth is very accurate plus minus 2 minutes on the clock which is
about 30 minutes zodiacaly or half a degree . solar arc directions of planets to cusps predict with accuracy of
30 minutes which is half a year that already confirms what i said the TOB accuracy is 2 minutes .
My birth day 16.5.1984 TOB 14:30 city Donetsk Ukrain
Events :

1. birth of brother 2.7.1989
2. immigration 24.7.1990
3. somewhere in between this dates got bad news that i am forced to change school 20.6.1991-1.9.1991
4. Travel Overseas 6.7.2001
5. Mobilization 11.2.2003
6. medical operation (left knee) 9.10.2003
7. Hospitalization and major Illness Hospitalization date 28.4.2005 and 12.5.2005 (the situation already started a month before in april)
8. Demobilization 5.8.2005
9. started sudennly to be very Religious after a very hard year 16.5.2006 (maybe it is a 9H or 12H matter )
10. Hospitalization 11.9.2006
11. Accident (fall from hight , stairs , head heat (asc)) 1.11.2008
12. Travel (positive) cruiz 9.08.2009

These are the events i am very confident of their dates Except number 3 is in range of about 2 month .
I hope this 12 events is enough .

[ODdOnLifeItself]

Hello Daniel,

I did the rectification last night... took awhile, but I am quite confident.

Before I present my findings, I'd like to ask if you have another event or two (as out-of-sample test)? Especially good would be the births or deaths of some other important family members.

I've checked my results using Topocentric Primary Directions (direct and converse) [solely how the rectification time was found], then confirmed with Transits (direct and converse), Progressions (direct and converse), Solar Arcs, PSSR aspects, and perhaps most importantly (since it also is incredibly birthtime-sensitive), Age Harmonics. The soon-to-come results work across all of these systems.

[Daniel148]

Hello ODdOnLifeItself !

I have another 2 events to make extra check :

Death of Grandfather (from mother's side ) 10.2.2005 most chances this date is accurate but in extreme case the date is a day after :
11.2.2005

Death of Grandfather (from father's side ) 13.10.1998 exact for sure

Thank you !

[ODdOnLifeItself]

Re: "...solar arc directions of planets to cusps predict with accuracy of 30 minutes which is half a year that already confirms what i said the TOB accuracy is 2 minutes."

As I said, I am sure that I have the right birthtime for you, but it's not within the +/- 2 mins that you had calculated, I'm afraid.

But before I get to the time, let me show you through Solar Arcs (the method you based your above statement on) for each of your events.
Orb of all aspects <= 0° 21' of arc.

Birth of Brother: Node conjunct MC 15', Node opposite Uranus 0'

Travel overseas: Sun opposite Moon 12', Mercury conjunct Venus 22'

Mobilization: Asc semisquare Mars 21', Mars opposite Node 17', Mercury conjunct Mars 20'

Operation: IC conjunct Neptune 19', Asc semisquare Mars 17', Pluto conjunct Mars 20', Uranus opposite Neptune 4'

Hospitalization: Node sesquisquare Saturn 21'

Demobilization: MC semisquare Venus 8', Uranus sesquisquare Venus 6', Moon sesquisquare Venus 10'

Hospitalization: Neptune sesquisquare Node 4'

Accident: Mars conjunct Uranus 15', Node opposite Neptune 10'

Travel positive: Venus conjunct MC 17', Venus opposite Moon 15'

Death of maternal Grandfather: Node sesquisquare Saturn 6', Sun square Asc 1'

Death of paternal Grandfather: Saturn opposite Sun 13'

[ODdOnLifeItself]

May 16 1984
2:33:29 PM
R2D -04:00:00
Donetsk
Ukraine
37e48'00 48n00'00

Let me quickly run through my methodology.

I used Polaris to give me the times between 2:25 pm and 2:35 pm that produced the best Topocentric Primary Directions. As mentioned, each type of event is weighted against the expected aspects specifically for that type of event and then each moment is ranked and then sorted. Even when I extended the search range to +/- 1 hour, it still goes directly to 2:33:29 pm as the best birthtime.

I've checked this time using (not only the TPDs that were used to find this time, but also) Transits, Progressions, Solar Arcs, and Age Harmonics. Age Harmonics are especially good as a test, because the tiniest change in birthtime makes a big change in what aspects are at events.

As always, the best test for a rectification is checking how it performs in out of sample tests, which Daniel has given me two events...so without further ado...

Death of Grandfather (Feb 10, 2005)

TPDs: Neptune opposite MC 5', Neptune conjunct Moon 7'
Transits: Saturn semisquare Node 32', c Pluto square MC 38', c Saturn square Mars 12'
Progressions: Sun square Asc 1', c Mars opposite Sun 4'
Solar Arcs: Node sesquisquare Saturn 6'
Age Harmonics: AH Saturn square AH Ascendant, AH Node semisquare Neptune

Death of Grandfather (Oct 13 1998)

TPDs: Pluto inconjunct Dsc 5', 12th trine Neptune 5'
Transits: Saturn conjunct (your 8th House) Mercury 18', Saturn sesquisquare Asc 19', Pluto opposite Node 1° 6'
Solar Arcs: Saturn opposite Sun 13'
Age Harmonics: AH Moon conjunct AH IC, AH IC opposite Pluto, AH Pluto square Sun, AH Moon opposite Pluto

There were several stand-outs while looking over your events in various systems, but one stand-out was for your religious change in your life, I find it extremely telling that Pluto by primary direction formed an opposition to your natal Venus 0° 5' orb, which signifies a complete transformation of your value system and your life's priorities often through some pretty intense emotions or subconscious cleaning. As you surmised, the 12th House was definitely involved and is here signified by PD Mercury square 12th 2'.

Let's look at one event in more detail, the birth of your Brother. I would expect positive planets with the 3rd House and especially the Node in connection with the Angles.

TPDs: Asc square Moon 1', Node conjunct MC 2', Node opposite Moon 3'
Transits: Mercury sesquisquare 3rd, Jupiter sesquisquare 3rd, Node semisquare Jupiter, c Node conjunct Asc
Progressions: Uranus conjunct IC 3', c Asc square Moon 1', c MC conjunct Node 4'
Solar Arcs: Node conjunct MC 16', c Moon opposite Node 17', Node opposite Uranus 0'
Age Harmonics: AH Moon conjunct AH IC, AH Node opposite Asc, AH Jupiter conjunct MC AH Uranus conjunct AH IC

[Daniel148]

It is very intresting calculations . it will take some time to digest all of the information .
I would like to make some calculations in Solarfire with the time you have found
Correct me if i am wrong about what parameteres to set for prime directions :
1. naibod rate
2. classic converse or modern converse ? (should i use converse movement ?)
3. topocentric house system
4. primary mundane or primary zodiacal ?
5. primary metod placidus or regiomontanos ?

[ODdOnLifeItself]

I'm afraid that Solar Fire (nor Janus 5.5 presently) doesn't do (true) Topocentric Primary Directions.

Carl Kühr (the better part of a hundred years ago) discovered a more correct way of calculating primary directions. Then, in the 60's, Polich and Page worked backwards, using primary directions (and appropriate aspectual symbolism at events) in well-timed horoscopes, to determine just exactly where the house cusps (powerpoints) should be and devised a house system (topocentric), based on where the cusps were FOUND to be empirically...

Using both of these together (Kühr's improved method of calculation and the correct house system)...gives us the present-day system that Alexander Marr used, and Isaac Starkman, Juan Estadella, I, and many more are using. The problem is...very few software titles calculate them properly.

There is Polaris, which is freely downloadable, but you'll need a Windows XP computer or a newer computer running a virtual machine with Windows XP in order to use it. There's the old Marr program, Astro, but it's a DOS program and needs a "DOS-Wrapper" in order to run it. As far as modern programs that calculate these, I only can think of programs by Rumen Kolev (extremely popular among traditional astrologers) that calculate them correctly.

As far as online... there is https://carta-natal.es/direcciones-primarias.php

To cut to the chase, for the events that you've already given me, here are a few of the Topocentric Primary Directions...

Birth of Brother: Asc-Moon 1', Uranus-3rd 2', Node conjunct MC 2'

Mobilization: Pluto-MC 3'

Operation: Moon-8th 1', Mars-Neptune 3', Node opposite Mars 3' [PSSR: Saturn opposite Ascendant 4']

Hospitalization: Moon conjunct Neptune 3', Asc square Neptune 5', MC opposite Neptune 8'

Religious change: Pluto opposite Venus 5', Sun square Asc 0' [PSSR: Pluto trine 9th 1']

Accident: Uranus conjunct Mars 5', Pluto-12th 2', IC conjunct Mars 10' [PSSR: Moon square Saturn 6']

Travel (positive): Asc-Jupiter 3' [PSSR: Mercury conjunct 9th 1']

Grandfather dies: Neptune opposite MC 5', Neptune opposite Moon 7'

Grandfather dies: Pluto-Asc 5', 12th trine Neptune 5'

[Daniel148]

I installed Polaries on virtual machine with win xp
and when i try to load the program i get an error : HASP plug not found
do you know what does that mean ?

[ODdOnLifeItself]

It means you're trying to install the official release version of Polaris (that needed a dongle).

A non-HASP (no-dongle) version can be simply downloaded from: https://ajak41.wixsite.com/polaris (this is with Isaac's approval that his program is now FREE of cost and that the dongle-constraint is removed) If you've already successfully installed the HASP version, you only have to replace the main program file, from your installation, with the main program file available on the above-given link.

I'd recommend you also download any documentation available as well. The Marr and Marr/Starkman books that are to download are full of some out-of-the-way techniques/approaches that are GOLD. (worth-wise) [especially Prediction 1 and Prediction 2]

Hope this helps! It's a ****GREAT**** program!