Squares to the Nodes of the Moon

[BlueKnight22]

Is there any evidence to support the existence of an "angle" perpendicular to the moon's nodal axis?

I'm not sure if the north node/south node is considered (or labeled) as an angle.

I've been spending a lot of time working with the 12 angles Jim talks about (including the EP in RA) and since they all have other angles that are perpendicular to them, it got me wondering if this exists for the moon's nodes too?

[Jim Eshelman]

Is there any evidence to support the existence of an "angle" perpendicular to the moon's nodal axis?

I'm not sure if the north node/south node is considered (or labeled) as an angle.

I've been spending a lot of time working with the 12 angles Jim talks about (including the EP in RA) and since they all have other angles that are perpendicular to them, it got me wondering if this exists for the moon's nodes too?

I've moved this to the Planets section (it's a better fit); but I see why you thought it might be treated as an angle since the nodes (much like the Major Angles) are consequences of the intersection of the ecliptic with another plane.

Any evidence? Those who work with the nodes and rely on them certainly expect squares to the nodes to be important. - OTOH I have a hard time seeing any effect in Moon's nodes at all in human character: While I can, of course, drop the word "connection" or "association" into an interpretive sentence, when I look for specific character or circumstance commonalities based on people with particular node aspects, I just don't find them. In trying to find something in them, I move closer to the idea that only conjunction with one end or the other is of value, and even this just doesn't obviously hold water: I'm not convinced yet.

Therefore, you would get different answers from me and from those who rely routinely on the nodes.

OTOH, if the nodes are important in some way not yet obvious to me, and if there is anything other than conjunction with a node that is going to be important, it's the squares. This isn't just because the square is the next strongest aspect but because, mathematically, the squares are the points where Moon's orbit is farthest from the ecliptic. Viewed from the ecliptic, they are the peaks of Moon's cyclic spin away from and back toward the ecliptic.

[Jim Eshelman]

As an example, let's take my catalogue of almost a thousand quality-timed birth charts and look for any that have Mars within 1° of conjunct or opposite Moon's nodes. We should see some significant Mars themes of one kind or another, yes? With these close orbs, only a few names emerge: Here they are. I leave it to you to find some commonality.

Emperor Augustus, Gov. Bobby Jindal Garrison Keillor, Harpo Marx, Johannes Brahms, Pope Benedict XVI, Sir Richard Francis Burton, Pres. George H.W. Bush, H.R. Giger, Margot Honecker, Nikola Tesla, Matt LeBlanc. (The politicians all tend to be conservatives, often of an especially repressive kind; but most of the rest aren't - for example.)

In comparison, here are the partile Mars-Node squares:

Bhagwan Sri Rajneesh, Rep. Helen Gehagan Douglas, Pres. Thomas Jefferson, Jenny McCarthy, Theodore Sturgeon, Dr. Margaret Millard, Pearl Buck, Dean Stockwell, Amy Fisher.

Besides adding one murderer in the last group, can you see commonalities in these people? And, if so, are they commonalities they share with the first group above?

Ya see the problem I have with this? - Notice, I'm not saying there is nothing here. I'm saying I'm so far unable to confirm there is anything here.

[mikestar13]

The current edition of TMSA has the option to treat the node asa planet. (Your choice of mean or true node). I believe all other astrology programs also do so. As far as I know, no one treats the node as angle.

[Jim Eshelman]

The Western idea that the North Node resembles Jupiter and the South Node resembles Saturn is not something I've been drawn to or that has been obvious in looking at examples; but there is one very important piece of symbolism that I've never seen anybody tie into that.

It comes from a Jupiter-Saturn comparison I've been revisiting recently, something that came out of Garth Allen's "Kid Gloves" series: The Jupiter ergie anchors in us during the initial nursing stage, as the Saturn ergie anchors during toilet training. In the same way that Saturn is elimination, Jupiter is assimilation; as Saturn is excretion, Jupiter is accretion, growth by taking in. Jupiter primally relates to the world through the mouth, Saturn through the poop-shoot.

So the fact that the North Node is called the head and the South Node is called the tail is a fascinating coincidence.

[BlueKnight22]

Thanks Jim. I wasn't trying to re-open a debate about whether the nodes are important or not. Although that is a good topic IMO.

To me, they are more like angles than planets. Specifically they are more similar to the Aries Point (0 degrees Aries) and Libra Point (0 degrees Libra) that western astrologers use. If you look at the 3 cycles of motion that the Earth moves through (day, month and year), 0 degrees Aires/Libra is the plane of the Earth's daily motion intersected with the plane of the Earth's yearly motion.

The Moon's nodes are, if memory serves me, actually the nodes of the Earth's and Moon's motion around the Earth-Moon barycenter. And so the "nodes of the moon" are equivalently the plane of the Earth's monthly motion intersected with the plane of the Earth's yearly motion.

I have not ever heard of anyone using the plane of the Earth's daily motion intersected with the plane of the Earth's monthly motion. I think this could be approximated by finding when the Moon has 0 degrees declination.

And yes, I have had the thought that the squares to the nodes are when the Moon has the highest or lowest latitude, somewhat similar to 0 Cancer and 0 Capricorn.

Mostly I am just exploring all of the types of angles that exist and trying to figure out what they mean.

Are there any specific threads on this forum related to any of this? (moon's nodes, 0 degrees Aries/Libra, or even the Moon's apogee/perigee or the Earth's apogee/perigee)

[Jim Eshelman]

To me, they are more like angles than planets. Specifically they are more similar to the Aries Point (0 degrees Aries) and Libra Point (0 degrees Libra) that western astrologers use.

Yeah, I got that. But I'd want to base any conclusion about them on whether they actually have meaningful astrological value, not on a theory about them.

Just to stir things up most: It seems every year I become less convinced that the ecliptical position of angles is valid. (It's not at all how angularity is determined, and any sign relevance is somewhere between minimal and fanciful.) Taking that theory into the Node question doesn't leave the Nodes looking very promising.

The Moon's nodes are, if memory serves me, actually the nodes of the Earth's and Moon's motion around the Earth-Moon barycenter.

They are the intersection of Moon's orbital plane with the ecliptic. (Yes, that orbital plane has the Earth-Moon barycenter as one of its foci.)

Are there any specific threads on this forum related to any of this? (moon's nodes, 0 degrees Aries/Libra, or even the Moon's apogee/perigee or the Earth's apogee/perigee)

The nodes are all over the forum. I think there's at least one thread about the vernal point (VP) as a distinctive factor, probably started by Steve, with occasional other mention. (There's no way that you will find them called 0 Aries/Libra here, since that's only their position in a fictional zodiac.) I doubt there's anything on Moon's apogee-perigee or Earth's aphelion-perihelion unless I answered someone's question about "Dark Moon Lilith," but you can use the excellent search tool to check.

[SteveS]

There is only one aspect in my Natal that exactly explains to me the most important "connections & contacts" I have made with other important non-close people outside my immediate environment for my life, and that is my angular Jupiter-Node aspect ("fortunate contacts"). These Jupiter-- Moon Node "contacts" were life changing for my life in very imporant ways. Truly this Natal aspect is my true life's blessing.

The VP I still have many doubts for Natal importance but keep an open mind.