Novien Moon sign samples

[Jim Eshelman]

This is a discussion thread. Feel free to dive in.

As I have said elsewhere, I'm persuaded that the Novien is the correct form of this sub-chart (rather than the Navamsa) and currently of the view that the sign placements of Novien Moon and other Novien factors are meaningless. (My persuasion of Novien superiority over Navamsa is from Novien planet interchanges with other people's charts in synastry and similar signs that they are objective placements.)

I have not seen Novien sign placements mark people's character other than in a random (and small) percentage of the time. Marking character is the first thing I would expect to see of a secondary Moon-sign placement, but I don't think it's there. Nonetheless, I could be persuaded that I haven't looked closely enough or used enough examples, so I decided a while back to start cataloguing about a thousand Novien Moon placements of well-timed public charts. This is what I give below for everyone's reference.

Recently, I have entertained the possibility that Moon's Novien sign placement is relevant in a more subtle way. I do have examples (myself and my wife being the first two of a small number) where - if you exclude character descriptions and rely only on the abstract symbols attached to the sign - it may show as a seemingly "fated' set of conditions. (To me, "fated" means, "unconsciously motivated.") This would appear as unconscious attraction to the symbols. Two examples: My Novien Moon is in Libra; Libra Moon doesn't not fit my character at all; but I've spent half my adult life working (and prospering) in the field of law. My wife's Novien Moon is in Sagittarius; Sag Moon doesn't fit her character except in those specific ways Sag overlaps her Leo Moon; but she was born into an airlines industry family that led to her travelling much of the world before she left elementary school, and otherwise has impacted her life. Therefore (thinking aloud), I'm willing to allow that maybe (maybe!) there is something of this sort going on.

Regarding character, I have another anecdote: While tabulating these positions, I'd (here and there) encounter a Novien Moon sign that I thought really fit the person. However, in almost 100% of the cases, it was already their natal Moon or Sun sign.

In any case, here are the lists of people with Novien Moon in each sign. (If you want to examine the Navamsa Moon signs for correct symbolism, just back up a trine, e.g., to get a list of people with Navamsa Moon in Gemini, look at the Libra list below.

Taurus https://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php? ... 313#p46676
Gemini https://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php? ... 313#p46677
Cancer https://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php? ... 313#p46678
Leo https://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php? ... 313#p46679
Virgo https://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php? ... 313#p46680
Libra https://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php? ... 313#p46681
Scorpio https://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php? ... 313#p46682
Sagittarius https://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php? ... 313#p46683
Capricorn https://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php? ... 313#p46684
Aquarius https://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php? ... 313#p46685
Pisces https://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php? ... 313#p46686
Aries https://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php? ... 313#p46687

[Jim Eshelman]

Pres. Franklin D. Roosevelt, Pres. Harry S Truman, King Henry VIII, Mary Queen of Scots, King Edward VIII, King Henri III, Prince Consort Albert, Eva Braun, Gov. Jeb Bush, Maria Shriver, Alan Hale Jr., Algernon Swinburne, Annette Funicello, Audrey Hepburn, Brenda Lee, Carol Burnett, Carrie Fisher, Catherine Deneuve, Celia Franca, Curt Sachs, Diane Sawyer, Dinah Shore, Farrah Fawcett, Faye Dunaway, Frank Sinatra, Gladys Bentley, Gloria Estefan, Helen Duncan, Honore de Balzac, James Dean, Janet Gaynor, Jon Bon Jovi, Julio Gallo, Kay Francis, Kris Kristofferson, Leonard Cohen, Linda Blair, Luciano Pavarotti, Lucy Hutchinson, Margaux Hemingway, Margo St. James, Marion Jones, Martin Sheen, Megan Fox, Mick Jagger, Mother Meera, Oscar Wilde, Raquel Welch, Ray Bradbury, Richard E. Byrd, Robert Strack, Robert Anton Wilson, Sharon Tate, St. Therese of Liseux, Stephen Foster, Stephen King, Steven Spielberg, Susan Sarandon, Suzanne Valadon, Truman Capote, Whitney Houston, Winona Ryder, Wynonna Judd, James Hanratty, Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein, Alexander Graham Bell, Jean Piaget, Jonas Salk, Immanuel Velikovsky, Judith Butler, Wilhelm Gesenius, Alan Leo

[Jim Eshelman]

The number of singers and other music figures in this list is quite remarkable, considering Gemini's ancient and persistent connection to music:


Janis Joplin, Karen Carpenter, Bette Midler, Donna Summer, Paul McCartney, Johnny Cash, Harry Nilsson, Liberace, Dudley Moore, will.I.am, John Legend, Wolfgang A. Mozart, Phil Spector

Pres. Abraham Lincoln, Barbara Hutton, Bernadette Peters, Betty Ford, Betty White, PM Cecil Rhodes, Clara Bow, Deepak Chopra, Dennis Hopper, Donald A. Bradley, Edith Wangemann, Elias Ashmole, Ellen DeGeneris, Elvira, Ferdinand von Zeppelin, George Eliot, George Lincoln Rockwell, Haley Joel Osment, Helene Boucher, Herman Melville, Immanuel Kant, PM Indira Gandhi, Queen Isabella I, James Holmes, James Earl Ray, Janeane Garofalo, Jeffrey Dahmer, Jim Backus, Jimmy Hoffa, Joanne Herring, John Cleese, John Holmes, Joyce Carol Oates, Julian Assange, Katharine Hepburn, Larry Flynt, Leonardo da Vinci, Liliane Bettencourt, Linda Tripp, Queen Margaret Tudor, Marianne Williamson, Marsha Norman, Martin Luther, Michelangelo, Pattie Boyd, Paula Prentiss, Peggy Fleming, Richard Speck, Sen. Robert F. Kennedy, Robert Koch, Robert Louis Stevenson, Robin Williams, Rodney King, Crown Prince Rudolph, Ruth Gordon, Simon Newcomb, St. Teresa of Avila, Ted Bundy, Tony Kushner, Vanessa Redgrave, Wes Craven, William Faulkner

[Jim Eshelman]

Pres. Woodrow Wilson, Pres. Barack Obama, King Louis XVI, Sen. John McCain, Queen Consort Mary, Lorenzo de Medici, Thomas More, Mayor Rudy Giuliani, Alice Cooper, Allen Ginsberg, Amanda Knox, Angela Lansbury, Anna Moffo, Arthur Conan Doyle, Beverly Sills, Billie Jean King, Bruce Lee, Coco Chanel, Dean Stockwell, Dottie Wiltse Collins, Duffy, Edith Piaf, Eleanor Smeal, Franz Hartmann, Israel Regardie, George Baxter, Gen. George B. McClellan, Giorgio Armani, Grace Slick, Hugh Hefner, Isaac Pitman, Jane Fonda, Jean Harlow, Jeane Dixon, Jennifer Aniston, Joe Pesci, John Belushi, John Lennon, John Milton, Keir Dullea, Kurt Cobain, Kylie Jenner, Lois Lowry, Loni Anderson, Mae West, Marie Laurencin, Mata Hari, Mohandas Gandhi, Nina Hartley, Petrarch, Phyllis Schlafly, Priscilla Presley, Ricky Nelson, Rod Serling, Roger Ebert, Rosie O'Donnell, Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Soeur Sourire (Jeanine Deckers), Tammy Faye Bakker, Vincent Van Gogh, Whoopi Goldberg, Leslie Van Houten, Dan White, John Flamsteed, Alexander Fleming, Carl Sagan, Hans Eysenck, John Forbes Nash Jr., Richard Krafft-Ebing, Cyril Fagan, Liz Greene,

[Jim Eshelman]

It's worth noticing that no astrologers are in this set (and there are a few more murderers than we've been seeing). There are some extremely dignified figures among the politicians especially, but don't jump too fast to thinking this shows a real Leo influence: Many of them already have a Leo luminary. Nonetheless, it's not a terrible group (with an occasional name like Webber that jumps off the list). - We do find several writers who seem to touch deep legend archetypes.


Emperor Franz Joseph, Pres. Thomas Jefferson, Pres. Jimmy Carter, King John I, Queen Victoria, PM Georges Clemenceau, King Ludwig II, Chancellor Konrad Adenauer, Chief Justice William Rehnquist, Justice Anthony Kennedy, Sen. Kyrsten Sinema, William Penn, Hermann Goering, Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis, Laura W. Bush, Margaret Trudeau, Karen Hughes, Gladys Knight, Belinda Carlisle, Adele, Nat "King" Cole, Chuck Berry, Paul Simon, Chick Corea, Dr. Dre, Janet Baker, Johannes Brahms, Bela Lugosi, Montgomery Clift, Gene Wilder, Charlie Sheen, Matt LeBlanc, Olivia De Haviland, Geraldine Chaplin, Julia Roberts, Julie Andrews, Emma Watson, Marcia Gay Harden, Rene Russo, Rose McGowan, Roseanne Barr, Sally Kellerman, Sandra Bernhard, Shannen Doherty, Susan Watkins, Martha Stewart, Sydney Pollack, Kathryn Bigelow, Andrew Lloyd Webber, George R.R. Martin, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, William Blake, Percy Bysshe Shelley, Jules Verne, George Sand, Virginia Woolf, Edgar Rice Burroughs, Ken Kesey, Erich Segal, Gwendolyn Brooks, Paul Cezanne, M.C. Escher, Abigail Folger, Anne Frank, Annie Besant, Charles Lindbergh, David Duke, J. Paul Getty, John Wayne Bobbitt, John L. Lewis, JoJo, Neil Armstrong, Sarah Bernhardt, Terri Lyne Carrington, Ernst Abbe, Guglielmo Marconi, Paul Janssen, Bertrand Russell, Havelock Ellis, Henri Desiré Landru, Charles Manson, Marc Dutroux, Valerie Solanas,

[Jim Eshelman]

Interesting to me is that there are several "young maiden" figures. Even Thatcher's "Iron Lady" fits the Virgo archetype (but she has a Virgo Sun regardless). One might argue that the political figures below whose character is much better marked by their nativities nonetheless have a quality of strategy & tactics that is atop or separate from that. I don't know what to make (if anything) of Dr. King and Malcolm X both being on this list.



Pres. Rutherford B. Hayes, Pres. William McKinley, Pres. William H. Taft, Pres. Theodore Roosevelt, PM Winston Churchill, PM Margaret Thatcher, Duce Benito Mussolini, Chiang Kai-Shek, Maximilien Robespierre, VP Kamala Harris, Charles Prince of Wales, Sec. Condoleezza Rice, Eleanor Roosevelt, Lady Bird Johnson, Rep. Liz Cheney, Gov. George Wallace, Mayor Tom Bradley, Commissioner Harvey Milk, Agatha Christie, Aimee S. MacPherson, Alfred Dreyfus, Alfried Krupp, Amy Winehouse, Aretha Franklin, Ava Gardner, Balthus, Barbara Hershey, Rev. Billy Graham, Billy Joel, Bonnie Langford, Celine Dion, Clifford Irving, Dorothy Dandridge, Dorothy Hamill, Drew Barrymore, Ethel Kennedy, Ginger Rogers, Giuseppe Verdi, Harper Lee, Helene Segara, Henri Philippe Petain, Henry Ford, Jackie Coogan, Jacqueline Susann, Jane Avril, Jeff Bridges, John Coltrane, JonBenet Ramsey, Judy Garland, Liza Minnelli, Julian Lennon, Kenneth Lay, Lauren Bacall, Linda McCartney, Malcolm X, Maria Swanenburg, Maria Von Trapp, Martin Luther King, Mary Shelley, Morgan Fairchild, Myrna Loy, Nadya Suleman, Niccolo Machiavelli, Patty Hearst, Pauline Hanson, Placido Domingo, Raymond Buckland, Reece Witherspoon, Richard Carpenter, Robert Graves, Ross Perot, Sri Aurobindo, Swami Vivekananda, Sylvia Plath, Tallulah Bankhead, Tina Turner, Uri Geller, Vivian Leigh, Walt Disney, Will Rogers, William Burroughs, Yvette Labrousse, Charlene Gallego, Timothy McVeigh, Johannes Kepler, Marie Curie, Buckminster Fuller, Noel Tyl

[Jim Eshelman]

I can't help but notice the list of astrologers here, though I haven't yet compared it to other sign groups. It would be easy to see many of us more as Gemini than Libra - because it's my Novien, I'm keenly aware of that (but willing to give it up based on other evidence mentioned at the top). While Grace Kelly shines as a sterling Libra example, Arnold Schwarzenegger first came to public awareness as a beautiful body, and Imelda Marcos was almost pathologically fond of her wardrobe, I don't think the rest of us particularly do unless it is a more subtle (non-planetary) correlation with Libra. - The group, though, is heavily tipped toward entertainers, with a few people in other fields who leveraged distinctive celebrity.

There isn't the Law theme that would have made sense in my case and fit classic Libra symbolism. (Only one figure that fits that besides the political figures.)


Pres. Joseph R. Biden Jr., Queen Anne, Queen Elizabeth Stuart, PM Julia Gillard, King Farouk, Pope Francis I, VP Dick Cheney, Sen. Cory Booker, Gov. Imelda Marcos, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Joseph Goebbels, Mayor Rahm Emanuel, Marcia Clark, Britney Spears, Buddy Holly, Chaka Khan, Dolly Parton, Eartha Kitt, Roberta Flack, Linda Ronstadt, Julie London, K.D. Lang, Susan Boyle, Lisa Marie Presley, Giuliana De Sio, Lily Pons, Miles Davis, Sheila E., George Martin, Giacomo Puccini, Maurice Jarre, Bettie Page, Bill Maher, Lenny Bruce, David Brinkley, Gayle King, David Copperfield, Geena Davis, George Takei, Grace Kelly, Natalie Wood, Gwyneth Paltrow, Michael J. Fox, Mila Jovovich, Harpo Marx, Jerry Lewis, Roman Polanski, George Lucas, Kathleen Kennedy, Maya Angelou, Charles Baudelaire, Christine Angot, Erica Jong, Frances Yates, Helen MacInnes, Sidonie-Gabrielle Colette, Ernst May, Gustave Eiffel, Bernie Madoff, Bobby Fischer, Steffi Graf, Jackie Robinson, Jerry Rubin, Julia Child, L. Ron Hubbard, Nate Silver, Richard Francis Burton, Terence McKenna, Virginia Brooks, Fritz Perls, Linus Pauling, Myra Hindley, Hera Myrtel, William Heirens, David Koresh, Llewellyn George, James A. Eshelman, Matthew Quellas, Zipporah Dobyns

[Jim Eshelman]

There is a lot of blood in this list. (More than the other lists? I haven't checked, just going by what I tice.) In addition to the murderers we find military figures and war-minded leaders (but perhaps no more of those than in other lists). Add Coppola and the figurative blood of Springer. (Is this just my imagination running away, or is it a pattern?) An unusual number of early Fagan allies are on this list.


Emperor Augustus, Pres. James Madison, Pres. Chester A. Arthur, Pres. Warren G. Harding, Pres. George W. Bush, King George VI, Queen Catherine de Medici, PM Hendrik Verwoerd, Pope Benedict XVI, Cardinal Richelieu, Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, Sec. James Baker, Sec. Pete Buttigieg, Amb. Caroline Kennedy, Stacey Abrams, George Plantagenet, Alfred Lord Tennyson, Amber Tamblyn, Bette Davis, Betty Friedan, Bob Marley, Carl Benz, Carla Van Raay, Carmen Electra, Chelsea Handler, Christa McAuliffe, Diane Arbus, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Francis Ford Coppola, Georgia Bonesteel, Helen Gurley Brown, Helen Mirren, Jerry Springer, Jessica Mitford, Kathy Bates, Kesha, Lena Horne, Leona Helmsley, Marion Cotillard, Marlee Matlin, Miley Cyrus, Monica Lewinsky, Naomi Judd, Neil Diamond, Patti Page, Patti Smith, Paul Foster Case, Pearl Buck, Philip K. Dick, Robert Heinlein, Roger Ailes, Rona Barrett, Rose Mary Woods, Ruth Buzzi, Salome Jens, Shirley Jones, T.S. Eliot, Tuesday Weld, Werner Heisenberg, Dian Fossey, Sigmund Freud, B.F. Skinner, Johannes Trithemius, Brig. R.C. Firebrace, Rupert S. Gleadow, Jimmy Hynes, Augusta Foss Heindel, Margaret Hone, Margaret Millard, Angelo A. Buono Jr., Aaron Kosminski, Mark David Chapman, O.J. Simpson

[Jim Eshelman]

Pres. James K. Polk, Pres. Ulysses S. Grant, Pres. Richard M. Nixon, Pres. George H.W. Bush, Czar Ivan the Terrible, Adolf Hitler, Dalai Lama XIV, Queen Consort Caroline, Rosalynn Carter, Andy Kaufman, Margaret Cho, Lucille Ball, Mary Tyler Moore, Marilyn Monroe, Robert Blake, Anne Baxter, Peter Fonda, Barbara Bain, Diahann Carroll, Catherine Zeta-Jones, Lisa Edelstein, Lisa Kudrow, Kenneth Branagh, Claudia Schiffer, Col. Tom Parker, David Letterman, Conan O'Brien, Burl Ives, Stu Sutcliffe, Esther Phillips, Patsy Cline, Judy Collins, Helen Reddy, Sheena Easton, Jim Morrison, Jimi Hendrix, Lin-Manuel Miranda, Diamond Jim Brady, Edward Bulwer-Lytton, Elaine Pagels, Ernest Hemingway, Gertrude Stein, Simone de Beauvoir, Hermann Hesse, Lord Byron, Rudyard Kipling, Ernest Gallo, Karen MacNeil, Joan Ganz Cooney, Joan of Arc, Karen Silkwood, Kourtney Kardashian, Marjorie Cameron, Phyllis Lyon, Sally Ride, Starhawk, Florence Maybrick, Louis Pasteur, Luther Burbank, George Boole, Jack Parsons, Roberto Assagioli, Charles Carter, Gary Duncan, Carl W. Stahl, Joanne S. Clancy, Johann Muller (Regiomontanus),

[Jim Eshelman]

As I was tabulating these, I noticed an several people I would classify as "storytellers." I've isolated these at the top of the list below. I don't know if this is truly unusual compared to other sign groups tabulated here. (Other artists - actors and musicians - could be added to the storyteller group - that's what they're actually doing with their art - but thus far I've only included those that are clearly in that category.)


Garrison Keillor, Gustave Flaubert, H.G. Wells, H.P. Lovecraft, Hans Christian Andersen, Judy Blume, Melissa Etheridge, Washington Irving

Alan Alda, Alan Watts, Albert Hoffman, Czar Alexander I, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Andy Griffith, Angela Davis, Barbara Minty, Barbara Walters, Beatrice Cenci, Bonnie Raitt, Brian Wilson, Brooke Shields, Bruce Springsteen, Candace Bergen, Carol Kane, Carole Feuerman, Cass Elliot, Catherine Corsini, Charles Atlas, Princess Claire Coombs, Dakota Fanning, Diana Ross, Divine, Queen Elizabeth I, Eric Idle, Esther Williams, Gena Rowlands, King George III, Glenn Close, Hedy Lamarr, Heinrich Himmler, Rep. Helen Gahagan Douglas, Jane Goodall, Jane Russell, Gov. Jesse Ventura, Jim Bailey, Sen. John Glenn, Johnny Carson, Karl Marx, Lee Harvey Oswald, Lily Tomlin, Linda Goodman, Linda Sexton, Lorraine Hansberry, Madonna, Marie Antoinette, Martin Frankel, Martin Heidegger, Mary Astor, Mia Farrow, Olga Wormser, Speaker Paul Ryan, Rami Malek, Richard Pryor, Rita Wilson, Rowena Jackson, Salvador Dali, Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, Sophia Loren, Stephen Paddock, Steve Allen, Tanya Tucker, Uma Thurman, Valerie Harper

[Jim Eshelman]

A lot of scientists - maybe more than the other groups. Several people in the genius category in their field (not sure if there are more than other groups, though).


Empress Catherine II, Pres. Gerald R. Ford, Pres. Charles De Gaulle, Sen. Bill Bradley, Barbara Bush, Rudolph Hess, Gov. Chris Christie, Diana Princess of Wales, Omarosa Manigault, Kimberly Guilfoyle, Marquis de Sade, Ally Sheedy, Bhagwan Sri Rajneesh, Candy Barr, Cheech Marin, Christine Aguilera, Donna Brazile, Dymphna Cusack, Edgar Degas, Ella Fitzgerald, Frank Lloyd Wright, Franz Joseph Haydn, Goldie Hawn, H.R. Giger, Harry Houdini, Heidi Fleiss, Helen Hunt, Henriette Bosmans, J. Pierpont Morgan, Jane Roberts, Jean-Paul Sartre, Gen. Jeb Stuart, John F. Kennedy Jr., Joseph Campbell, Julie Taymor, Lauren Hutton, Lewis Carroll, Louisa May Alcott, Lucky Luciano, Marthe Hanau, Lucy Lawless, Margaret Atwood, Marion Davies, Marjoe Gortner, Mary Greer, Meg Tilly, Meryl Streep, Michelle Pfeiffer, Nathalie Stutzmann, Oliver Stone, Oprah Winfrey, Oriana Fallaci, Queen Latifah, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Raphael of Urbino, Ringo Starr, Rosalind Russell, Sally Eaton, Stevie Nicks, Tamora Pierce, Tyra Banks, Warren Buffet, Willem Dafoe, Woody Allen, Tycho Brahe, Carl Linnaeus, Nikola Tesla, Carl G. Jung, Margaret Mead, Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, Oswald Spengler, Rollo May, Robert Hansen (The Butcher Baker), Charles Whitman, Amy Fisher, Dane Rudhyar, Max Heindel

[Jim Eshelman]

Quite a few murderers with interesting stories. Scientists are mostly related to some sort of cognition mater.


Pres. George Washington, Pres. John F. Kennedy, Pres. Bill Clinton, Pres. Donald Trump, King James I, King Charles VIII, King Louis XIII, King Louis XIV, Justice Samuel Alito, Sen. Joseph McCarthy, Margot Honecker, Edith Wilson, Pat Nixon, William J. Bratton, Kellyanne Conway, Antonio Banderas, Barbra Streisand, St. Bernadette, Chelsea Clinton, Cher, Clara Barton, Connie Francis, Demi Moore, Douglas Adams, Dustin Hoffman, Eddie Van Halen, Elisabeth of the Trinity, Friedrich Nietzsche, Gabriella Papadakis, George Harrison, Gen. George Patton, Gloria Steinem, Greta Garbo, Harry Chapin, Isaac Hayes, Jayne Mansfield, Jerry Lee Lewis, Josephine Baker, Kathleen Battle, Kelly Ripa, Kenneth Anger, Lana Turner, LeAnn Rimes, Liz Renay, Mark Spitz, Marlene Dietrich, Mary Wilson, Mindy Kaling, Morgan Freeman, Patty Duke, Penny Marshall, Polly Bergen, Richard Alpert, Robert Downey Jr., Ted Turner, Tim Rice, Wm. Randolph Hearst, Thomas Henry Huxley, Ada Lovelace, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Anna Freud, Timothy Leary, R.D. Laing, Alfred Witte, Reinhold Ebertin, Kenneth Irving, Marsilio Ficino, Michel Gauquelin, Bruno Hauptmann, Winnie Ruth Judd, Ian Brady, James Huberty, Cheryl Crane, Genevieve Lhermitte

[Jim Eshelman]

Pres. James A. Garfield, Pres. Calvin Coolidge, Queen Elizabeth II, Jawaharlal Nehru, Justice Stephen Breyer, Princess Mary, Sen. Thomas F. Eagleton, Rep. Sonny Bono, Joachim von Ribbentrop, Alan Dershowitz, Alanis Morissette, Anatole France, Annie Horniman, Anton Chekhov, Arnold Palmer, Austin O. Spare, Billie Holiday, Bo Derek, Carole King, Catharine MacKinnon, Chloris Leachman, Christina Onassis, Christopher Reeve, Dana Delany, Blesséd Elena Aiello, Ellen Burstyn, Elvis Presley, Florence Farr, Friedrich Engels, Gene Roddenberry, Ghislaine Maxwell, Gordon Ramsay, Hal Holbrook, Jasmine Guy, Jenny McCarthy, Jerry Garcia, Jesse Jackson, Jimmy Page, Joan Jett, Lari White, Linda Lovelace, Louis Braille, Lynn Redgrave, Marcel Marceau, Mark Wahlberg, Marlon Brando, Martha Graham, Melanie C (Sporty Spice), Nicole Kidman, Olivia Newton-John, Paula Abdul, Peter Yarrow, Phyllis Diller, Prince, Ron Howard, Ronan Farrow, Sheryl Crow, Steve Carrell, Susan Strasberg, Theo Van Gogh, Theodore Sturgeon, Vincent Price, Werner Erhard, Yo-Yo Ma, Lizzie Borden, Gerald Gallego, Rev. Jim Jones, Nicolaus Copernicus, Mary-Louise von Franz, Arthur H. Blackwell,

[mikestar13]

This influence is subtle if it even exists. I feel no more affinity to my Moon's novien in Leo group than to any other sign. I find the close square from Novien Moon to natal Saturn rather more significant in my life. On the whole, Saturn has played a bigger part in my life than you would expect from its rather wide angularity and 2 and a half degree trine to the Sun (though that's not a small part). Including (shades of Fagan and the sexoscope) romantic and sexual attraction. I have been persistently attracted to older women starting with my first real crush on third-grader Donna when I was in second grade (you always remember your first in whatever sense), and persisting until about my Uranus demi-return. (Talk about Uranus shattering Saturnian structures.) OTOH in my erotic fiction my alter egos are rather more often in younger man/older woman relationships and rather less often the other way around. Indeed the story boiling around in the back of my mind right now (which I will probably write after TMSA 1.0 is published) fits the younger man/older woman mold.

[Jim Eshelman]

Mike, I agree I wouldn't have pegged you as a Leo Moon. Fagan made a lot out of Jackie Kennedy having Novien Moon in Leo, to which we can add Laura Bush who also was elevated to the same function and handled it demurely, plus a lot of power politicians who look like good candidates for a Leo Moon (but may of whom already have a strong Leo presence in the nativity). Among the significant astrologers that I listed in my 1,000 Samples list of famous charts, none of them fall here.

But yet: the exact square of Novien Moon to your natal Saturn is a sight to behold.

I do, however, consider Saturn in your nativity to be strong than it seems you do. It's not so much the Saturn itself as the mix of having Mars and Saturn as your two foreground planets, which sets a bit of a tone for the chart. Though Mars opposite Saturn is Class 2, a foreground Class 2 opposition is noteworthy.

I also think an important feature in your Novie s your partile Venus-Pluto opposition.

While I do currently think there is nothing to Novien signs - so much so that I'm writing this thread as if to counterbalance my position against it - I do think the positions are objective (e.g., your Novien Moon square natal Saturn). There is also the interesting feature that, if we're right about Terry's approximate birth times, Terry and Sue have Novien Noon near each other. Does this touch your chart? Not as closely as I'd like, but it hovers near your angles. Here's some fun stuff:

20°40' Cap - Mike r MC
21°21' Lib - Sue N Sun
23°09' Ari - Sue N Venus
23°24' Lib - Terry N Moon ?
25°35' Ari - Mike r EP-a
25°54' Lib - Mike's NN
27°41' Cap - Sue N Pluto
29°19' Lib - Sue N Moon

[mikestar13]

Agree Saturn is fairly strong even without considering noviens, but I still feel Saturn more strongly: more like tight class 1 strength. Venus-Pluto adds an interesting nuance to my natal Venus-Eris "love thy name is chaos". BTW when I was new to astrology and was experimenting with (w)rectification, I considered putting Saturn on my descendant.

[Jim Eshelman]

I know what you mean. Despite all the Mercury in my chart from Sun in Virgo alone, that Moon-Mercury Novien square sticks out like a blazing ember.

BTW when I was new to astrology and was experimenting with (w)rectification, I considered putting Saturn on my descendant.

Hey, it's only about a half-hour shift. And it still keeps Mars foreground (more or less swaps their orbs). - Just having Saturn in the 7th house wasn't good enough for you? <vbg> [Ironically, it makes your chart less Saturnian in at least one sense: You'd lose your Capricorn MC.]

[mikestar13]

A good example of why I don't believe in the rectification of to the minute BC birth times like mine, much less personally timed like both my sons. Accuracy closer than a minute is swallowed up in the uncertainty of what exactly is the moment of birth. In Josh's case the equivalent of extrusion (he was a C-section, as was David), first breath, and cutting the cord all occurred within a minute, David was a shade slower, maybe 90 seconds. BTW for what it's worth, I'm a strong advocate of first breath--the one thing that infallibly distinguishes a live birth from a stillbirth.

[Jim Eshelman]

Agreed. The chart lasts from first breath to last breath.

[Patrick Machado]

I find the possibility of something like a zodiacal "unconscious motivation" fascinating. I agree that the Novien Moon's constellation doesn't describe character like primary, regular natal factors do. For instance, Leo Moon doesn't describe me at all: only three to five words from your interpretive summary could be taken as fitting for myself. And while my own relationship to the symbolism of Leo is what instigates my interest in this topic, before I get into that, let me see what I can gather from a few private examples according to their Novien Moons.

Cancer: A desire for sanctuary, an undisturbed, cosy place of refuge. That, perhaps, the world at large could be such a place, for others as well as themselves. Pacifism.

Libra: A sense of unfairness in life due to people being dealt "random" hands. Scientific within a formal, academic setting: seeking progress within, and building upon, what's already established.

Capricorn: Parental issues, which however appear well enough in the respective nativities. Drawn to the life of a "bad boy/girl," but unable (or unwilling) to commit to it: bound by a need for familiarity, comfort, safety... This seems to have looped back to Cancer symbolism. Looking back at that group for a reciprocal observation, there are also parental issues in it, not shown so clearly in the nativities.

Aquarius: Psychodynamic psychotherapists. Leo too! (Of course, my sample is as biased as it is small.) Another loop.

As for myself, I do feel a connection with Leo that I don't feel with any other constellation apart from the ones holding my natal luminaries. Not Pisces (my Venus), not Libra (my Midheaven), not Cancer (opposite my Moon). I'd go as far as saying that I feel a definite sense of "otherness" about the constellations besides Aquarius and Capricorn. Leo, then, is the only other one that doesn't seem quite as foreign to me.

For an Aquarian, I am not averse to the concept of Kingship or Royalty. (But Emperors are "too much," and there is something that irks me about Nobility.) I have always had a strong religious instinct linked to a thorough dissatisfaction with the "base metals" within me, especially weakness. I might say I hate weakness (a Sun in Leo trait). I have long felt a need to achieve and embody (let's call it) solar-martial archetypal masculinity.

Now, of course, I suppose I'm cheating since the initial idea was that it's something unconscious, and here I am very consciously talking about it. I can't even say I discovered any of the above by undergoing psychoanalysis: I've been aware of these things for a long time. At least, nothing in that process challenged me on them.

And yes, there are enough factors in my natal chart that, taken together, can reasonably account for what I described. But for what it's worth, there's how Novien Moon in Leo could fit me.

[Jim Eshelman]

Perhaps the word you want is subconscious, not unconscious. (There's no need to be unconscious about subconsciousness.)

I write this while still not being persuaded there is anything to these signs; but, of course, the purpose of this thread is to shake the bushes on that question

[Patrick Machado]

That works.

I'll keep looking at this for at least a little while, with about the same level of interest as in mundane octiles.

[Soft Alpaca]

Coming back to this all, I think our innate turn away from this in the west is the whole idea of the ID, or the self. In eastern thought the self is a perception cut from our own actions not the other way around. We are our plasticity the moon our expressions which are intimate actions.
There is no subconscious and the vedic system uses the planets who rule the signs and houses over the signs in these D9 charts. They are used to add flavor or rather tone to a person's chart .(My sun novien would dictate Mars and a life of trials and/or possibility to just be miserable because of the constant challenge, and if you have no subconscious then that could make me a louse of a person because you are what you act and express.)
I do belive in tablua rasa myself, though also in ginen, we can inherent programing through our ancestors - literally our genes (why I'm bipolar to this day Is partially do to environmental effects of slavery and the trail of tears, and partially due to the process of inherted genetics and how these are passed down.)
I don't belive we inhnert the liability of our ancestors morality however though (I don't want NO government money) but the coding of their tramas aka perhaps karma does exist.

This next bit is a more experimental.
I'm more inclined to look at the novien like coding, which makes sense to use aspects over signs and angles. I can't lie and say I'm not wondering if these planet's who rule the D9 houses or specifically the luminaries signs have influence over our lives. It's hard in my chart to distinguish this due to Mars also having presence in aspect forms through the D9 if so makes sense why I I "feel" more martial and my misplaced liking to the signs associated with it (exalted Mars and angular Uranus helping in aiding this).

[Jim Eshelman]

Coming back to this all, I think our innate turn away from this in the west is the whole idea of the ID, or the self. In eastern thought the self is a perception cut from our own actions not the other way around. We are our plasticity the moon our expressions which are intimate actions.

Yes, the priority is placed differently. That's usually described as saying Hindu astrologers are more event driven and don't analyze character; but that's too simple.

A commonalty is a recognition that there is little to no separation between character and destiny (or, we might say, between character and actions and events). One model tends to focus on actions and events, seeing character as a consequence or side-effect of them. The other model tends to focus on character, seeing actions as arising from it and events as consequences or side-effects of character.

Both of those windows are conveniences, not "truth." They both sidestep the purer principle, which is that there is no separation between the two. Character IS destiny etc., not that one causes the other.

For myself, when I get binary about it, my only interest is character. I would happily (happily!) do without any astrological predictive methods at all because what matters most to me in life is having means to bring people to be as aware as possible of who they innately are, then to consciously align their choices with that understanding. However, I don't have to have one or the other and, in fact, couldn't have one or the other because they are inseparable. Identity IS action, provided we don't limit "action" to physical action but also include, e.g., thoughts and images.

Patanjali defined yoga (I translate freshly from the Sanskrit) as the constraining of one's mind-stuff from taking particular forms and adaptations. I therefore define magick as causing the mind-stuff to take particular forms and adaptations. (The word I have translated "forms and adaptations," vrittis, literally means "whirlpools.") Yoga and magick are thus the same thing, but reciprocal applications in exactly the same sense that heating and cooling are the same thing.

I'm more inclined to look at the novien like coding, which makes sense to use aspects over signs and angles.

Your use of "coding" is quite similar to what I most often feel about these (unless I'm interpreting you wrong). I plan to sort out my "stable language" when I write the Novien chapter for the Big Book later this year.

By "coding" I wonder if (particular word choices aside) you mean what I mean with the following: The Novien is fundamentally a lunar chart. I have always thought it necessarily had something to do with subconsciousness, or with that layer of psyche that exists in animals and existed exclusively in humans before the ego started to develop. The birth chart (often) then feels like the normally operating layer sitting atop this which gets most of the attention.

In computers, the equivalent would be that the Novien is the firmware - the immediate layer above the hardware that, in the most primitive way, tells a computer how to act like a computer BEFORE you get to an operating system, e.g., what you see flash on the screen before Windows starts loading. The horoscope is then the operating system Ie.g., Windows) that runs atop this firmware layer (though it could be a different OS instead, e.g., Linux running on the same computer hardware with the same firmware layer).

If that's not too confusing to anyone reading this that doesn't understand how computers work

A clue to this relationship is that, first of all, aspects between the Novien and the natal seem quite meaningful. But when I ask myself which is more "inside" and which more "outside" - which acts more like a transiting planet and which more like a natal - it's pretty consistent that the natal is the "outside" or more-external layer, seeming to modify the "initial plan" of the Novien.

I think this can feel like karma simply because the underlying layer is so much deeper (even prior) and seems almost out of context with the horoscope, except when one tingles or tickles the other.

I don't mean by this that I think the Novien is the "karma chart," but I do often think it is showing those things that people most register that feels to them like karma. Things that come easily, or character impulses that seem to have no direct life-history explanation, or things that have simply an intuitive since that they were prior to the current incarnation's birth chart - even though the Novien is a mathematical modelling of the birth chart.

[Soft Alpaca]

I love that most people my age don't even know what Linux is.. yes I wasn't Implying it was karma just that it felt very similar yes. I agree with everything you've said above.

I would say raw the chart reverberates my Venus placement in particular (i think the planet was aspected by a luminary possibily) or it could be the twin Uranus+Mars energy in the D9. Its more so is how I handle things in the maw of the moment. When real sh1# hits the fan moments, which are guided not by ego but by this layer <at least I feel personally (the moon).
I would say that perhaps I don't always react emotionally similar to other moon types I share with sometimes. (Oddly enough I may get pegged as an Aquarius or Cancer Moon).