Muhammad Ali

[Zig]

Does anybody know if anybody has done a detailed study of Muhammad Ali's chart in sidereal?

I have a friend who is a devout tropical astrologer! He tells me "How can be the greatest have a Cancer ascendant"? Any ideas with some ammunition I can hit back with? LOL I have tried the Mars in sidereal Aries bit........but the persona eg the ascendant not Leo mmmmm Steve

[Jim Eshelman]

I included his chart in my '70s book TNA but can't say it was a great analysis. For the specific question you were given, it shows too much reliance on Ascendant sign (a minor figure) and trying to use Tropical interpretations of Cancer. Sidereal Cancer, the exaltation of Jupiter has lots of showmanship etc.

IIRC the key in Ali's chart was in the aspects. The scream the truth about him. For the rest I have to wait until I'm home and can sit down with the chart.

[Jim Eshelman]

I had a chance tonight to look at Ali's chart. As I remembered, the aspects tell the main part of the story. In addition to the obvious, explosive power of Mars square Pluto, he has one of the most characteristic aspects of boxers, Venus-Saturn, with their square closely angular.

As for signs, he has both Sun and Moon in Capricorn, the exaltation of Mars, with Mars itself in Aries. Sure, Cancer the showman is rising, though that's just his outermost facade (and his glib, easy mastery of words and equal speed and agility of his body corresponds to the foreground Moon-Mercury conjunction trine Jupiter).

Read the site's standard interpretations of Sun and Moon in Capricorn and Mars in Aries. I think you'll find them quite fitting Ali.

[SteveS]

Whenever we are analyzing a great athlete’s Natal, we must first take a look at his Mars aspects. IMO, there are 3 most telling aspects in Ali’s chart:
1: His Natal Pluto is 1,24 cnj East Point in RA 1,43 90 Mars. Ebertin (COSI) says about the “Principle” for Mars-Pluto combos:

Superhuman power (force, brutality)

Boxing is by far the most brutal sport of em all.
2: He has a Direct Midpoint of Mars/Saturn = MC (0,07) Cosmobiologist look upon direct midpoints involving the lights and angles as just as strong as a standard aspect, I find em most important in a Natal. Ebertin (COSI) for Mars/Saturn = MC:

Endurance, power of resistance, indefatigable. The need to overcome many difficulties in life.

Ebertin footnotes Mars/Saturn:

These people are very tough and have a great deal of perseverance, having to use an exceptional amount of energy in order to keep their place at work and maintain their position in life.

I see his Aries Mars, Saturn, MC as symbolizing a great Aries principle for his boxing career.
3: His 1,05 conjunction of Moon-Mercury partile 90 MC. Quite obviously this aspect was the “chatter box” in Ali, always chatting at his opponents spewing-off rapid fire chatter with the touch of a poet. He used this Moon- Mercury aspect in a most unique way for his career, and his angular Venus offers the aspect for his painting hobby---he painted a-lot when he retired from boxing. He was actually a "peace" (Venus) loving person although he was labled a draft doger in his life.

Ali was a great man and a great champion.

[Jim Eshelman]

Now that I'm home and can actually look at the chart, I see that there is something both Steve and I missed - something of great zodiacal significance. I don't know if this would impress your Tropicalist friend (since they rightly don't pay much attention to this sort of thing), but Siderealists have discovered is has considerable importance just like the ancients said.

Muhammad Ali, "The Greatest," had Midheaven in the 19th degree of Aries - the exact exaltation of the Sun! This is the most solar degree of the zodiac. Having it MC is like a stronger version of having Sun 0° from Midheaven.

As mentioned before, double Capricorn Ali is a fabulous example of Capricorn. It tells his story very well. - Consider also that another athlete who was both great and a racial breakthrough figure had both Sun and Moon in Capricorn: Jackie Robinson.

Still, the great impact is in his aspects. And, in any case, his glib, agile personality arose from such things as the angular Moon-Mercury conjunction, as Steve mentioned, not the Ascendant in any zodiac. Sidereal Cancer Ascendants (most of whom are Tropical Leo Ascendants) do have an instinctive showmanship - they know how to play to a camera (or microphone) as if born to it - but they are rarely loud and brazen. (Most of the men, in particular, are downright quiet, with the women being heard more often, especially as singers.) Here are the 80 SZ Cancer Ascendants in my large collection of example charts - draw your own conclusion.

Alanis Morissette, Andy Kaufman, Angela Lansbury, Anne Frank, Augusta Foss Heindel, Ava Gardner, Beatrice Cenci, Betty White, Bill Gates, Bobby Fischer, Carol Kane, Celine Dion, King Charles III, Christopher Reeve, Dorothy Dandridge, Duffy, Edward Bulwer-Lytton, Queen Elizabeth Stuart, Ella Fitzgerald, Eric Idle, Florence Farr, Friedrich Engels, Gabriella Papadakis, Garrison Keillor, Genevieve Lhermitte, King George III, Pres. George W. Bush, Gov. George Wallace, Giorgio Armani, Glenn Close, Gustave Eiffel, H.R. Giger, King Henri III, PM Indira Gandhi, James Hanratty, James Holmes, James Earl Ray, Janet Baker, Jawaharlal Nehru
Joan of Arc, King John I, Joseph Goebbels, Judy Collins, Julia Roberts, Julio Gallo, Karen Hughes, Karen MacNeil, Lauren Bacall, Lauren Hutton, Lisa Marie Presley, Llewellyn George, King Louis XIII, Luciano Pavarotti, M.C. Escher, Marilyn Monroe, Marjoe Gortner, Max Heindel
Maya Angelou, Meryl Streep, Michel Gauquelin, Muhammad Ali, Naomi Judd, Petrarch, Richard Carpenter, Robert Downey Jr., Robert Graves, Sandra Bernhard, Sri Aurobindo, Stephen King, Susan Strasberg, Susan Watkins, Tanya Tucker, Sen. Thomas F. Eagleton, Thomas Henry Huxley, Tina Turner, Valerie Harper, Wilhelm Gesenius, William Blake, Wynonna Judd, Yvette Labrousse

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

Muhammad Ali, "The Greatest," had Midheaven in the 19th degree of Aries - the exact exaltation of the Sun! This is the most solar degree of the zodiac. Having it MC is like a stronger version of having Sun 0° from Midheaven.

How did our ancient astrologers figure this out?

[Zig]

Hi Jim/Steve,
I think you have given me enough fire power to Nuke him!

Thank you for all your contributions.

His web site is Capricorn astrology research if any one is interested in looking at his articles using the tropical zodiac. Evidently Mars in Taurus is the most common sign for boxers according to his research, which in sidereal would mainly be Mars in Aries. I did take an interest as I have Mars in Aries near MC and Cancer rising but I'm a lover not a fighter........only joking! LOL

Cheers Steve

[Jim Eshelman]

In case you missed it - to give some background on both theory and actuality of boxers' charts - see this, that I typed up over the weekend:
https://solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6760

[Zig]

Thanks Jim.