Transiting Parans

[Jim Eshelman]

Nov 27, 2015

About an hour ago I found Hand’s book, ‘Essays on Astrology,’ and since I have been discussing my personal gambling experiences with transiting Parans, I thought I would post Hand's examples of transiting Parans to certain Natal Charts in his Chapter, ‘A New Approach to Transits. It should be clearly understood that very little research has been done in this area simply because it needs a very close clock TIME of an important dated event in order to research transiting Parans. Hand starts his essay off by writing:

What I am putting forth in this article is a new manner of dealing with transits. It is both conceptually and operationally new and contains some startling implications for astrological methodology and theory. Unlike most such theories, it is based on experimentally verified fact and worked out according to mathematical models. In practice it is still in the testing stages, but the purpose of this article is to alert others to this approach and to ask astrologers to assist me in working out the details and in verifying certain principles that will be mentioned later on in the course of the article.

It should be mentioned these essays were copyrighted in 1982 well before the advent of the Personal Computer with astrological programs. Hand did not release his astrological program NOVA until 1988 which included a function to list times and dates when a transiting Paran happened in a specific location. Back in these days I communicated with Hand a-lot and was one of the first astrologers to pre-purchase NOVA. This is when the light bulb went off in my mind realizing a gambler such as myself now could experiment with transiting Parans (TP) by moving around the Country to different Casino locations where TP’s set-up to what I desired as a gambling objective. IMO, transiting Parans work better with the SSR than the Natal Chart unless you were born with a benefic in the immediate foreground of your Natal, at least for gambling purposes. Hand was a Tropical astrologer and did not work with Sidereal solunars. Anyway, if any of you have the exact/close times when an important event occurred in your life, we can use this tread to do some research with transiting Parans both to the Natal and SSR.

[Jim Eshelman]

Nov 27, 2015

Since you opened this topic, I need to emphasize something overlooked: Unless you make some adjustments for precession, you are calculating these transits Tropically, and there can be a HUGE difference in timing. By the time one is 72 years old, they will be (on average) a whole degree displaced. At age 36, they're half a degree displaced.

The correct way to do it - I'm not sure if any program on the market allows this - is to create new Tropical longitudes for one's natal positions (subtract current SVP), use this and each planet's celestial latitude to re-derive RA and Declination, then use this RA & Dec to calculate the paran table. This is compared to the (much simpler to calculate) table for transiting planet parans.

Jim, I will post Hand’s first example and maybe you can then offer us the correct positions for any necessary corrections to Hand’s positions. But, correct me if I am in error, as long as we Siderealist compute all charts with SZ we don’t encounter the same problem as above—correct?

I'm not sure if any program on the market allows this…

If someone can tell me a programmer who is a Siderealist to contact which could possibly offer new program for transiting parans list for easy identification, I will inquire if practical or possible to get us the correct program for better identification for transiting parans. Jim, I don’t believe Solar Fire handles transiting parans—correct?

Calculating sidereally does not solve this problem. Parans are functions of Tropical coordinates that are constantly shifting. I have no means in my entire computing repertoire to show you how to adjust this, but I have a trick you will probably like - something easy enough on SF.

Great Jim. I know for sure I will not understand the math, but anything I can learn to do with a computer program, I will not worry about doing the math.

No math for the trick

[Jim Eshelman]

Nov 28, 2015

All we need to remember about transiting Parans is the transiting factor must be on a local angle with the radical factor being on the same, adjacent or opposite local angle. We can also have another class of transiting Parans where we need no radical factors, only transits of two or more transiting planets to the angles of a Sidereal Chart, which are not as common as transits with a radical factor. Jim may need to correct my wording for more clarification. We are using Sidereal Time to measure the closeness to the angle and we want to get these Paran combinations as close to being ON the angles as possible. Any Paran combo with all planetary factors under four minutes of Sidereal clock time is considered partile cnj the angle. Let’s absorb some more words from Hand’s article on Transiting Parans:

The second major datum that went into my hypothesis was my personal encounter with paranatellonta, or parans as they are called. These are simultaneous bodily transits of two or more bodies over the horizon or meridian circles of a given place at the same time. However, it must be pointed out that a paran-related pair of planets does not have to be actually on the angles at a given time to be in paran. They merely have to be potentially capable of transiting the angles at a particular latitude at some time during the day.

* (See Jim’s writings in his book ‘Interpreting Solar Return’ about ‘potential’ parans and ‘active’ parans.) This is most important to clearly understand when relocating solunar charts to a potential location which ‘activates’ a ‘potential’ paran which are present at your main residence, but becomes ‘active’ by relocating to a particular latitude which activates the paran. Continuing with Hand’s words from his essay:

I was introduced to parans through the writings of Cyril Fagan, who wrote about them in ‘Primer of Sidereal Astrology,’ and in various articles appearing in American Astrology magazine. I was personally given some more data through my good friend, A.H. Blackwell of New York. From my experience with parans, through him and through my own work, it became obvious that they were extremely important…

[Jim Eshelman]

Nov 29, 2015

Continuing with Hand’s words from his Transiting Parans essay:

I realized at once that parans were a logical outcome of Gauquelin’s discoveries. So one of the first things that I did was to check out several earthquakes to see if parans were present. They were in all cases, usually three or four and very close, within one degree or less. Also, there were no corresponding zodiacal aspects at the same time in several cases. Parans, depending as they do upon the latitude of the place, are latitude specific; that is, a paran will exist in one moment at one latitude and not another. In practical terms with the tools available (1982), computing parans is a difficult procedure, but it would be fairly simple for a computer. If, when due, malefic parans as determined by the computer, we would know in advance that a crises point was about to be reached and we could take precautions. It also could be used to take advantage of favorable times for maximum results. If this line of paran study pans out, it could provide the first reasonably reliable predictive tool that astrology has. And if this continues to pan out, the methods for helping people determine the best time periods in their lives for various types of action would be simpler than the current methods based on zodiac transits. In order to research parans, both the natal charts and the events must have specula cast for them. Specula are not very hard to cast with a trigonometric calculator, but keeping track of paran transits at different latitudes would be very difficult without a computer. To apply a transiting paran technique one would need access to a computer or a reasonably sophisticated programmable calculator.

Next I will post two examples Hand used for a timed event with accurate timed birth times. Hand chose these two examples at random.

[Jim Eshelman]

Nov 29, 2015

Let’s look at Hand’s first example for Paran transits, the kidnapping of Patricia Hearst:

Feb 20, 1954, 6:01 PM PST, San Francisco, California. 37n47 122w25

Abduction of Patricia Hearst: Feb 4th 1974, 21:20 PDT, Berkeley, California. 37n52 122w16

I am not going to go into Hand’s Specula details, I am only going to list the Paran transits for the abduction which he lists in his article. Hand works in the Tropical zodiac, and as Jim stated when working in the Tropical zodiac, one must account for precession to make adjustments to natal positions. Hand uses a orb of (+)( -) 1 deg so we are dealing here with app 4 minutes of clock time for paran transits, I think. Jim may want to make some exact corrections using the Sidereal Zodiac for Hand’s list of Paran transits. A =rising, D=setting, M=culminating, I= anti-culminating, all abbreviations indicating planets on the angles. The first planet listed is the transiting planet, and second planet is the natal planet. Here we go for the Paran transits hitting Hearst at the time of the abduction. A tally and comparison of these two types of transits is most revealing. And I have seen enough other evidence with my travel experiences, Paran transits are far surperior to standard zodiacal transits.

Paran transits:
SunM square MarsD +54’
MoonM cnj UranusM +48’
MoonD square SaturnM +32’
MoonA square MoonI exact
VenusM square SaturnD -26’
VenusA square SaturnM +25’
SaturnA square VenusM -11’
UranusD cnj NeptuneD -03’

Zodiacal Transits:
Sun 120 Jupiter -33’

[Jim Eshelman]

Nov 29, 2015

First, let's confirm the ecliptical transits. These will be different tropically and sidereally due to precession. (Rob normally adjusts for precession even while working in the Tropical zodiac, but I don't know if he did here.) The SVP when Hearst was born was 5°53'44" Pisces. At her abduction, it was 5°36'59". Therefore, 0°16'45" had accrued. (We could estimate this within 1' by noting she was in the month of her 20th birthday, subtract one-sixth of 20, or 20-3 = 17, so it was 0°17' of precession.)

Rob gave the following ecliptical transits according to Steve:

Sun 120 Jupiter -55’
Jupiter 90 Moon +14’
Neptune 90 Pluto -45’

I don't understand these at all! Transiting Neptune at 15° Scorpio is nowhere near square her natal Pluto at 30° Cancer. (This is not an artifact of the different zodiac.) Sun trine his Jupiter is there, but transiting Jupiter at 28° Capricorn is nowhere near square her Moon at 14° Virgo. Before we get too deep into this, I'd like to know if something is wrong - birth or event data wrong (it looks right to me at a glance) or Rob's results copied wrong, or I made a mistake. Nonetheless, since this is more about demonstrating technique than the actual results, I'll continue...

I get NO partile transits to her natal chart (which makes this a fabulous example!) except t. Moon conj. r. Uranus 0°51'. (One might count the EXACTLY 0°60' square of Venus to her Neptune.)

As a complete digression, here are transits to her SSR at the time. I include these to demonstrate that there were, in fact, important operative transits. I treat transits to the natal and the SSR as more or less equal, and a "transit profile" of the event isn't complete without these. Note, in particular, the doubled and reciprocal Mars-Pluto transits!

t. Pluto 90 s. Mars (0°31')
t. Uranus 135 s. Saturn (0°50')
t. Mars 135 s. Pluto (0°45')

Returning to the paran transits, and how to more easily calculate them to adjust for precession, here is a technique that works easily for paran conjunctions and oppositions, and is more tedious for the paran squares. Here is the list of paran aspects Rob gave, as quoted by Steve.

SunM 90 MarsD +54’
MoonM 0 UranusM +48’
MoonD 90 SaturnM +32’
MoonA 90 MoonI exact
VenusM 90 SaturnD -26’
VenusA 90 SaturnM +25’
SaturnA 90 VenusM -11’
UranusD 0 NepunteD -03’

Regrettably, most of these are squares, which makes my demonstration tedious; but that, in turn, demonstrates why paran transits are such a pain to calculate.

I'll start with those he cites that are not squares.

MoonM 0 UranusM +48’
UranusD 0 NepunteD -03’

Using Solar Fire, we need (1) the event chart and (2) the natal chart relocated to the event location (so that it has the same latitude). Since Hearst was born in Berkeley where the event occurred, we're good to go!

Open her natal chart in Solar Fire, click Pages, and select the page called Mundane Data Large. (It's the page file mund.pag, and I think it's been in all versions of SF back to at least v5.) This shows the longitude of each angle when the planet is crossing it mundanely. Though it isn't a perfect adjustment for precession, it will get us, in a normal human lifespan, within a few minutes in the worst conditions.

Extract the longitudes at which Heart's Uranus crosses the MC (CoCulm) and her Neptune crosses the Dsc (CoSet).
r. Uranus crosses MC 25°29' Gemini
r. Neptune crosses Dsc 4°43' Libra

Now, do the same for the event chart, but extract the longitudes at which transiting Moon culminates and transiting Uranus sets.

t. Moon crosses MC 25°58' Gemini
t. Uranus crosses Dsc 4°24' Libra

Look at what we can see! Transiting Moon crosses MC 0°29' later than natal Uranus. This is 19' closer than the 0°48' orb Rob reported (doing his calculations all Tropically), and the 19' gap is very close to the 17' displacement along the zodiac of precession since her birth. Also, t. Uranus crosses Descendant 0°19' earlier than natal Neptune; in this case, this is wider than the 0°03' orb Rob gave from Tropical calculations. The difference between the SZ and TZ paran calculations is 0°16' so, again, it is very close to the 0°17' of actual precession.

So much of the good news is: At least in this case, and in fact in a large majority of cases (at least in moderate latitudes) the actual shift in paran orbs will be within a very few minutes of arc from what we would get by just applying precession corrections to a Tropical calculation of the parans. This is encouraging!


Continuing... how would we test and calculate the paran squares he gives? This is tedious but doable. Here is the list:

SunM 90 MarsD +54’
MoonD 90 SaturnM +32’
MoonA 90 MoonI exact
VenusM 90 SaturnD -26’
VenusA 90 SaturnM +25’
SaturnA 90 VenusM -11’

We can easily calculate (just like the examples above) the longitudes for which each is on each angle, but that doesn't help much. I'll pick one example to show in detail - say, the Venus-Saturn paran. Rob's table shows transiting Venus rising 25' from when natal Saturn was on MC.

Step 1: Calculate the longitudes where each of these crosses the angle, using the Mundane Data Large report. Transiting Venus rose at 23°47' Sagittarius. Natal Saturn culminated at 16°05' Libra.

Step 2: Find out how far the MC is from 16°05' Libra when 23°47' Sagittarius rises. For this, use Solar Fire's rectification option. Open the event chart, click Rectify, and, in the Asc box, edit whatever is there to 23°Sg47'. You don't even have to click OK and finish, just click into another box and, instantly, you see that MC is 16°14' Libra, or 0°11' from the longitude of natal Saturn when on MC (16°05' Libra). Conclusion: Transiting Venus was 0°11' from paran-square to natal Saturn at that moment. This is 0°14' close than the orb Rob gave, so, again, we know that if we just subtracted 0°17' (accrued precession) from his calculations, we would be very close to the sidereal value.

That's how you use SF to check these. Though now we also know that you probably are OK just subtracting precession from the Tropical figures and knowing you are a few minutes off. Of course, at my age, that means I'd have to calculate them with a 2° orb to get all the possible aspects, since precession has been 0°51' since my birth.[/quote]

[Jim Eshelman]

Nov 29, 2015

A tedious example for myself... Today I am down sick, which kept me from retaking an important exam I flubbed previously. (Given my transits, I'd have probably screwed it up anyway, so I suppose getting sick is preferable.) The astrological "cause" is not hard to find by conventional means, since today transiting Saturn exactly squares my SSR Neptune, on a day when Sun-Saturn are conjoined in space square transiting Neptune (so it's really Sun-Saturn-Neptune to my Neptune) and, just for the kicker, at the time of exam transiting Moon was precisely square my natal Neptune. So I'm probably better off sitting here being sick than throwing away my $70 retake fee on a day I clearly couldn't function well. (Marion is off taking her test at the same place on a different course.)

I'd thought perhaps I'd get some advantage from transiting Mercury sesqui-square my natal Jupiter-Uranus. That's still in orb this morning, but it actually peaked in the wee hours of last night. What was the result? I completed my study of Super Bowl games and found that the statistically-derived formula works in accurately predicting almost 80% of all the games. (You see why I live and breathe by transits!)

But, just for the heck of it, are there any paran transits to my natal that could explain any of this?

I don't have the software Steve uses, so the best I can do is build paran tables for an event chart for, say, right this minute, and one for my natal chart, sort them in Excel, and manually check them side-by-side. Let's use 10:13 AM PST at my home. The room I'm sitting in is at 34N03'46" 118W18'47".

Here are all the aspects I find within a 2° orb (double orb for reasons stated above, so that I have room to catch all partile aspects after adjusting 51' for precession. (This is the really tedious part. I'll start just by listing relevant RAMCs.)

r. Ur Asc 14°27'
r. Ju Asc 14°59'
r. Su IC 15°16'
t. Ur MC 15°47'
t. Moon Asc 16°01'

t. Ve IC 22°43'
r. Ne IC 24°12'

r. Su Asc 109°42'
t. Ur Dsc 109°52'

t. Mo MC 117°34'
t. Ve Asc 117°38'
r. Ur MC 119°37'
r. Ju MC 119°50'
r. Ne Asc 119°52'

t. Ne IC 159°04'
r. Ve Asc 160°27'

t. Sa Asc 170°06'
r. Mo IC 170°20'
t. Su Asc 170°50'
t. Ju MC 172°03'

r. Su MC 195°16'
t. Ur IC 195°47'

t. Ve MC 202°43'
r. Ne MC 204°12'

r. Sa MC 217°22'
r. Me MC 218°00'
t. Mo Dsc 219°06'

r. Sun Dsc 280°51'
t. Ur Asc 281°42'

t. Ve Dsc 287°48'
r. Ne Dsc 288°32'

t. Mo IC 297°34'
r. Sa Dsc 298°47'

r. Mo IC 350°20'
t. Ju IC 352°03'

If I were looking at this purely as a Tropicalist, these numbers would need no adjusting and I would find the following partile paran-transits for this morning:

t. Ur 180 r. Su +0°10' (and +0°31', +0°31', +0°51')
t. Sa 90 r. Moon -0°14'
t. Sun 90 r. Moon +0°30'
t. Ve 0 r. Ne -0°44'
t. Mo 90 r. Su +0°45'
t. Ur 90 r. Ju +0°48'

however, as a Siderealist, these are not the figures I need. I want them adjusted for precession. My easiest "probably good enough" route is to add 0°51' to each of the natal positions above (the amount of precession accrued since my birth), and get the following estimated table of aprecessional paran-transits for this morning, (Remember, THESE ARE ONLY ESTIMATED ORBS.)

t. Ur 180 r. Su 0°00' EXACT (also -0°20', -0°20', +0°19')
t. Ur 90 r. Ju -0°03'
t. Ur 90 r. Ur +0°29'
-- t. Mo 0 r Su -0°06'
-- t. Mo 0 r. Ju +0°11'
-- t. Mo 0 r. Ur +0°43'
t. Su 90 r. Mo -0°21'
t. Ju 180 r. Mo +0°42'
t. Ju 180 r. Moon +0°52'

t. Mo 90 r. Me +0°15'
t. Mo 90 r. Sa +53'

This is... a most interesting set of transits! It doesn't show the sickness, so that's a serious "miss" - but it does show a general period of discovery focused on right now, and is especially fascinating when you consider that I may have - just might have - within the last few hours pinned down a formula for picking winners. (It works superbly looking backward. The test is in looking forward. But I think you get the point, looking at these particular aspects.) And then, of course, having this hyper-technical discussion this morning.

Finally, I want to spot-check some of these to see if, with 0°51' of accrued precession, we are pretty close with the "just add it to the paran values" approach. I will start with the obvious one, t. Uranus opposite r. Sun which is partile ecliptically but seems to be accurate to the minute today when Uranus is rising and my Sun is setting. Let's check.

Of course, natal Sun is always crossing angles with it's ecliptical longitude, since it has no latitude; so I already know that it sets with exactly 22°28' Virgo. Using the technique above with the event chart, I learn that transiting Uranus this morning rises when the Ascendant is 22°53' Pisces, so the orb isn't really as close as it looks. At my age, the "add precession" approach is half a degree further off. (The closest Uranus paran-transit to Sun right now is when they are on the meridian, i.e., pure RA, since Uranus crosses MC or IC at 22°10' Pisces, 0°18' from my Sun position.)

No need to check the others after discovering that the approximation method can be this far off.

[Jim Eshelman]

Nov 30, 2015

With my limited travel experiences using transiting parans (TP) and certain writings by Cyril Fagan with my 23 years of seriously studying Sidereal Astrology, I strongly feel TP has the potential to eventually become an important missing link for the Siderealist. I think what has prevented the Siderealist from a thorough research into TP is two-fold: 1: It is not practical because of the lack of a-lot luxury time to move about the Country for clear-cut objectives in order to gain a-lot of personal experience with TP. 2: We don’t have a modern astro program to handle TP in a simple format to quickly research certain situations/events with TP. This lack of proper astro program pigeon-holes the Siderealist into mainly only looking at standard zodiacal transits, imo, regardless if traveling or not. In other words, we are somewhat limited in the amount of serious research which could be done with TP, on an idividual level.

Jim, do see any way Solarfire can be manipulated in a manner that would allow a list of Sidereal Times (ST), where a researching Siderealist could take any latitude and quickly see if a TP existed with transiting factors to a radical factor? Jim, I am going to be pushing the envelope in this tread with more examples of TP, then I want to pick your mind with some questions after some of my conclusions about TP.

No, none at all. What I gave above is the most efficient ways I know.

[Jim Eshelman]

Nov 30, 2015

Do you know of any Siderealists who have done any “rigorous” testing with TP’s?

No. Spot checking here and there at most. On a guess, Arthur Blackwell probably did more work with them than anyone, and had computer access, but I only know of one article on the subject that he wrote, and it seemed sparse and a version of spot checking.

Since your middle name is “rigorous” with statistical testing, I thought these TP’s may offer us (mainly your keen analytical mind) some interesting research in all kinds of areas.

I think it's a fascinating idea and should be explored. Regrettably, we don't currently have a means to do it right, and even "reasonable approximation" is prohibitive due to the amount of labor and time required - other than in individual cases where we have strong personal motivation to take the time.

Arthur Blackwell probably did more work with them than anyone, and had computer access,

I called Hand after I started working with NOVA because I could not figure out how he was seeing TP’s with NOVA. One thing led to another and Hand put me in contact with Arthur. Arthur was very excited about TP’s, and now that I think about it, I think Arthur was the one who was mainly responsible for Hand writing code for TP’s in NOVA.

Regrettably, we don't currently have a means to do it right, and even "reasonable approximation" is prohibitive due to the amount of labor and time required - other than in individual cases where we have strong personal motivation to take the time.

I completely understand Jim. When I finally learned how to keystroke and see TP’s with NOVA I went to work in my spare time, and would literally spend hours at a time scanning the Country for just one location which would put me in the right location at the right time. I did this several times for several different locations/different times over the years. Back in those days I was working with a DOT Matrix Printer and would print out long lists, and then tediously go through the lists looking for the most potent benefic combo’s. I would go through those big boxes of Matrix Printer Paper like drinking a fine liquor, and think I burned out one Printer in the process. If I had Hand’s same code in Solarfire, I would not have to print out the paper, I could put it in View mode and also save a hell of a-lot of time with Window’s Solarfire. In order for me to have a better understanding with what you know/see with your mathematical mind, in your best estimation, how long would it take you in Solar Fire (with your TP method) hours to look into TP’s with all the SMA events you now have? For a-lot of these events I think there is an exact time. What I am really interested in, is possibly seeing if transiting Moon Parans (maybe clusters) are timing these events in a narrow time frame. Notice, Hand’s example that I posted there are 3 out 8 Ascensional TP Moon hits. In Hand’s second example which I will soon post there is 3 out 7 TP Moon hits. I was experiencing these type TP Moon hits to my Jupiter’s with my non-normal gambling trips.

[Jim Eshelman]

Nov 30, 2015

Isn't this similar thinking and then could be similar programming as astro map/world in astro.com and the world feature within solar fire? You can open the world feature for your solar return and you can see in which area your SSR Jupiter would be angular... then you might find a date when the Moon is in exact opposite degree to SSR Jupiter.

Isn't that approx what you are talking about doing in finding parans?
Do the programmers making solar fire accept suggestions for upgrades?

The problem area us the deletion of accrued precession.

[Jim Eshelman]

Nov 30, 2015

Arena asked:

Do the programmers making solar fire accept suggestions for upgrades?

Excellent question!! Back in the days when I was working with Matthew Quellas, a former colleague with Jim and their Sidereal Astrology studies (Jim had disappeared from the face of the planet, Hand at one time was trying to get in touch with Jim), I spent several weeks attempting to get in touch with the program writer for Solar Fire. When I finally got in touch with this person, I asked him one question: What would it take from me to get him to write a special code program for SF to handle TP's in the manner Matthew thought the best way. When I asked the programmer this question, he burst out laughing and said: "Are you crazy!?-- this would require a whole new set of written codes which would take months. I told the programmer, YES, I was definitely crazy . He then told me even if I could afford the costs, he did not have the time because he was under contract on another major project in a major career type way. It took Hand many months of tedious work to write accurate code for NOVA.

I damn sure don't have a mathematical mind in order to do the necessary work myself, but I damn sure realize with enough common sense, TP's are getting deep into the complete trig/geometry of our individual circles and with individual Crosses (the angles) at any location we may choose from, and TP's have not been thoroughly researched. I see and understand so many various ways TP's can be researched. Weather or not they truly work in an individual magical way--remains to be known.

[Jim Eshelman]

Nov 30, 2015

Steve, Nova is still being published by Astrolabe. They're only the US distributor for Solar Fire. You might call them and ask if Nova still does what it used to, and if it can be used on non-DOS computers.

I may have missed it and you already contacted them.

ETA: They're only the US distributor for Solar Fire, but Nova is their program.
I looked a bit more and Nova Chartwheels works on Windows machines from XP through Windows 10. It's $220.
Again, don't know if it still does what you need for your transiting parans.

[Jim Eshelman]

Nov 30, 2015

BTW it occurs to me that the simplest software upgrade that would let SF show paran transits (though not with the precession correction - just purely Tropical) is if they allowed more than one chart to appear on an astromap (perhaps forcing them, for convenience, into one color for Chart A and one for Chart B). It would be even better if they could then animate it. The latter might be asking too much for a "small fix," but the former should not be a big deal. You then could read parans between the two charts off the map.

(Oh, wait... animating astromaps is already built in.)

Yes, that might be exactly the way to do it, to animate a transit of a planet into the astro world feature ...then you can see when it touches that angular line on the map.

It isn't even a matter of touching angles (that boosts it). It's a matter of transiting planet making partile (or better) aspect to a natal planet via parans, whether they are anywhere near the angles or not (i.e., "potential parans").

[Jim Eshelman]

Nov 30, 2015

Steve, note that I'm not checking paran transits with the SMA data, just looking to see what parans existed at the moment of timed events.

Do you think by looking at the parans of timed event it will help you make a valid determination for pushing the TP envelope further? Jim, you know I trust your Sidereal Astrology judgement. Whatever you think we can purchase to help us with further TP research let me know and again I will cover expenses. JSAD, this also applies to you and you expert computer/program mind.

I don't know of anything existing that would help. I made a suggestion earlier about a small tweak to SF that their larger Tropical audience might like as well, and it could at least provide a way of visually watching for paran transits; but, then, only tropically, so that's still a big burden.

If the tweak to SF brings no results, and I am forced to use Nova for TP's, can I compute TP's in the Sidereal Zodiac so I don't have to correct for precession, or is there something I don't understand about correcting for precession using the Sidereal Zodiac?

[Jim Eshelman]

Nov 30, 2015

...can I compute TP's in the Sidereal Zodiac so I don't have to correct for precession, or is there something I don't understand about correcting for precession using the Sidereal Zodiac?

I'm not aware that anyone on earth has ever written code to allow for checking paran transits correctly. I can describe what needs to happen concisely, but haven't the skills to actually write the code.

DEFINITION OF WHAT WE WANT. Siderealists conceive of a planet's position as being fixed with respect to the rest of the universe. Think of it as a "spot" in the sky, with an exact Sidereal longitude and celestial latitude - and these are the factors that do not change.

HOW ARE PARANS CALCULATED / THE PROBLEM: Formula for the rising, setting, culminating, and anticulminating of planets rely on right ascension and declination of the planet and the geographic latitude of the horoscope. Right ascension and declination are measured along the celestial equator, and celestial longitude and latitude are measured along the ecliptic. The celestial equator and ecliptic diverge from each other (cross) at the equinoctial points. As the equinoctial points move due to precession, the relationship of a given RA and declination to their original celestial longitude and latitude diverges. RA and declination are necessarily calculated from Tropical longitude and latitude.

SOLUTION: Because rising / setting / culminating are derived from RA and declination, and RA/dec are derived from Tropical longitude and latitude, the correct method of comparing rising/setting/etc. of one date to rising/setting/etc. at another is to delete from natal planets the accrued precession and recalculate new RA/Dec, and use these to calculate new rising/setting/etc. times. The steps for this are: (1) Take the natal Sidereal longitude. (2) Subtract the SVP for the event date to get a "precessed" [sic] Tropical position. (3) Use this adjusted natal position and the natal celestial latitude to calculate new RA/Dec for the event date. (4) Use these to calculate new rise/set/etc. times for the natal positions, and compare these to the transiting positions.

[Jim Eshelman]

Dec 1, 2015

Jim, last night I went back and read of my e-mails with Matthew, we had several discussions about Parans/TP’s. When Matthew first got Solar Fire, he raised hell with Astrolabe and finally got them to send him a special file for SF. Matthew told me this file was the only SF function which may lead to a way to manipulate SF in order to see TP’s. I do know this: With Nova, Hand programmed Nova in a way which would produce lists with two separate charts (transiting & radical) showing the Sidereal Times when all the planets for both transiting factors and radical factors would rise, culminate, set, anti-culminated for a specific latitude. It was laborious, but all I had to do was go through these Nova lists at desired latitudes and eye when the list produced both a transiting planet & radical planet together with clock times within 4 minutes. When the list produced this cluster I knew I had isolated a TP. Below is a speculum with Matthew’s file he got from Astrolabe. I will later post Matthew’s file but first I want to talk with the people at Astrolabe. Mathew said a programmer should be able to take this file and simply produce the same lists that Nova produced isolating TP’s. Hand insisted before he produced Nova that it was a simple task for a computer program to produce lists for isolating TP’s which has been proved to me with my individual work with Nova years ago.

[Jim Eshelman]

Dec 01, 2015

Jim, good news, just got off the phone with the programmer at Astrolabe and she said Windows Nova Chartwheels will handle TP’s. When I get the CD she is going to carry me through the detailed steps. I purchased you one registered CD in your name so you will be able to talk with the programmer. Even if this bombs-out as what we really need to do solid research with TP’s—no problem. Thanks JSAD for your suggestion!!! If I understood the programmer, TP’s with Windows Nova Chartwheels was added in 2008. So far I am on a Roll.

Re: Matthew Q's file -
In my plain vanilla copy of Solar Fire, I click on reports and then Chart Analysis, under Chart Points I get the Longitude, Travel, Latitude, Right Ascension, Declination, Altitude and Azimuth already. If I then click over from Reports to Tabulations (upper right hand corner of the Reports dialog) and pick Rise Set Times, I get Longitude, Rise, Culmination, Set and Anti-Culmination, sadly in an image rather than useful text. (What's that about?)
The only things I see not already included are the Prime Vertical coordinates, the Co- (rise, set, culm anit-culm) and the column labeled Mund Pl which I don't know what that is.

[Jim Eshelman]

Dec 01, 2015

If I then click over from Reports to Tabulations (upper right hand corner of the Reports dialog) and pick Rise Set Times, I get Longitude, Rise, Culmination, Set and Anti-Culmination, sadly in an image rather than useful text. (What's that about?)
The only things I see not already included are the Prime Vertical coordinates, the Co- (rise, set, culm anit-culm) and the column labeled Mund Pl which I don't know what that is.

You can also get these on the Page I mentioned previously, "Mundane Data Large," which has the advantage that it gives co-angularity longitudes - a nearly perfect tool for this in a case-by-case basis.

Oh, and I can solve the problem of "can't copy the text" of the angularity RAMCs. Under Reports, pick Star Parans and set the orb to 0°00'. It strips out the stars and gives you the list you want. The Copy button loads it to the clipboard and you get this (which I paste into Excel and tweak to get a sequential paran list):

Code: Select all

			Rise		Upper		Set		Lower
Parans to Mon			259°27'		350°20'		081°13'		170°20'
Parans to Sun			110°59'		195°16'		279°34'		015°16'
Parans to Mer			144°44'		218°00'		291°16'		038°00'
Parans to Ven			166°01'		232°10'		298°19'		052°10'
Parans to Mar			228°31'		295°23'		002°15'		115°23'
Parans to Jup			010°33'		119°50'		229°08'		299°50'
Parans to Sat			138°29'		217°22'		296°16'		037°22'
Parans to Ura			009°54'		119°37'		229°20'		299°37'
Parans to Nep			121°30'		204°12'		286°54'		024°12'
Parans to Plu			041°22'		152°04'		262°46'		332°04'

[Jim Eshelman]

No "Mundane Data Large" page available in my copy of Solar Fire. I looked under every category in the Page index, and there's nothing even close.

Really? I've had it as long as I can remember. Maybe someone gave it to me? Anyway, here is a copy: https://solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=16

[Jim Eshelman]

Oh, I just (partly) figured out what "Mund Pl" is. It's the same thing you get when you calculate a "Z-Analogue Diurn Arc" chart. I'm guessing it's essentially a Placidus mundoscope, i.e., a proportioning of the semi-arc through which a planet has moved in its hemisphere. Its positions for me basically matches planet distances from Placidus house cusps.

Calculate this for something above the Arctic Circle like, say, the Resiadalen meteor impact, June 7, 2006, 2:13:15 AM CEDT, Reisadalen, Norway (69N15 21E07), and you'll see that three planets and the Midheaven don't show for this column - they are circumpolar, and so have no semi-arc. The rise/set tables show that they do not rise or set. However, they do have a PV longitude. (The altitude of everything is < 6°. Everything just scoots around the horizon within a very few degrees. 2:00 AM, Sun is 4° above the horizon )

[Jim Eshelman]

The formula for rising and setting when you have the RA, according to Fagan's Primer is
sin a/d = tan g tan d
where a/d is the ascensional difference, g is the geocentric latitude and d is the declination.

Following this thread and this one and a couple others, I have moved entirely away from geocentric latitude.

But, should I use it in this formula?

You should use in that formula the latitude that you believe is correct for calculating the chart.

Based on what you just said, that would be geodetic, not geocentric.

I'm trying to come up with a spreadsheet to give the precessed values for rise-culmination-set-anticulmination from the values for the original event and the SVP.

BTW, I came up with a PSSR-for-a-year spreadsheet but couldn't format it to be useful for anyone else.
Old versions of Excel don't play well with new versions of Windows. Maybe if I move it over to Open Office.

[Jim Eshelman]

Dec 03, 2015

Just got back from a short road trip. I was invited to Atlanta Georgia for a special screening to 20th Century Fox Christmas Movie “Joy.” My former business colleague and now close friend is part owner of a 4 screen ‘Concept Theatre’ in Davidson, NC. He has a travel expense account which allows him to go to all Movie Screening any place in the Country, but most of the time he goes to these screenings in Charlotte, NC. In the past he and I did a lot of business in Atlanta, Georgia, and Atlanta is right ON my Natal Jupiter line. My friend wanted me to see this movie “Joy” for my opinion. He had to choose between 2 other movies besides ‘Joy” in order to contract the best movie possible. At the end of the movie each participant in the screening had to offer their opinion. My remarks to the Fox represented:

Great Movie, a rarity, Jennifer Lawrence will probably win an Academy Award for best Actress, and the movie will be nominated as one of the movies for Best Pictures.

J. Lawrence leading role as a struggling individual business woman going through all the hardships to achieve success was the best acting role by a woman I have ever seen. I knew she was good-- but now I realize she is a great actress. I told my friend this movie has excellent potential to do repeat business by good word of mouth which again is a rarity. When movies develop “legs” the exhibitor make more profits. Most of the time with movies—the distributors make most of the money.

At the end of the movie I noted a time of 12:23 PM EST, Dec 3rd 2015. This produced a most interesting transit to my Natal Moon:

Natal Moon: 15,22 Scorpio
t. Sun 16,15 Scorpio partile cnj Natal Moon
Local t. MC at the time of end of movie 15,15 Scorpio

*Atlanta's coordinates: 33n45, 84w23

**I knew I would be watching this movie with t. Sun partile cnj my natal Moon, but what I did not know was t. local MC would be in the mix in a big way--exactly at the end of the movie. This is considered a transiting Sun in paran cnj to my Moon with the local MC, one of the ways a transiting paran can exist. I find this a very interesting synchronicity pertaining to this thread, but these type TP synchronicities I have seen before in my life. I am hopeful Jim & I will soon be getting software which may allow the Sidereal Astrologer to research & analyze TP’s in their individual lives with an easier format.

Dec 04, 2015

With my personal experiences with TP’s, and when one has clear practical benefic objectives for moving to different latitudes for trips on a short term basis, here is what happens:

One experiences good stuff during the day(s) with the potential TP in effect, and then during the DAY the potential paran becomes an active paran (for a few minutes), which brings/times the TP to a peak manifestation.

[Jim Eshelman]

Dec 05, 2015

Before I move on to Hand’s second example of a transiting paran (TP), here are some more words from Hand about his first example (Patty Hearst) of a TP:

The reader should be immediately struck by the greater number of close ascensional transits (TP’s) and the symbolic appropriateness of the ascensional transits as opposed to the one close zodiacal transit. Note also that Venus transiting is tied to the natal Saturn in two ways and that the transiting Saturn is also tied to the natal Venus.

Imo, Hand is trying to get us to investigate these TP’s because for the most part, they remain hidden from us with normal means of analyzing our transits in the conventional sense of only looking at standard zodiac transits to radical factors. In my life, I have definitely proven to my mind these TP’s are very important.

[Jim Eshelman]

Dec 08, 2015

With transiting parans (TP’s) every planet in our Natal Chart will rise, set, culminate, anti-culminate during a 24 hour day, same goes for transiting planets. A TP is when, depending on the geometry of a circle (scope) at a particular latitude a transiting factor will be on an angle at the same time one of your natal factors is on an angle. One of my favorite combos for successful gambling is Moon-Jupiter combos. Jim has been doing a-lot of research with winning/losing teams in Super Bowls with his brilliant free book on Sidereal Mundane Astrology (SMA), and on Dec 31, I have been thinking about making a max bet on Michigan St. +10 because of what I see/understand with Jim’s SMA work. Back in the 90’s I experimented with TP’s and proved to myself they are, at times, much more potent than our standard zodiacal transits. It just so happens I have on Dec 31st a t. Jupiter Paran to my Natal Moon. Looking at certain speculums with my natal chart and a transit chart on Dec 31, I note t. Jupiter will culminate with a Sidereal Time (ST) 11:36:51 and my Natal Moon will Rise with a ST of 11:36:17. Whenever you see a ST less than 4 minutes with a transiting factor and a radical factor, you have isolated a TP for yourself. Let’s look at this TP of t. Jupiter with my Natal Moon with a transit chart for the exact time when this TP becomes active from the potential day of the TP.

Note: The rising degree (Asc) in the above transit chart cnj my Natal Moon 15,22 Scorpio. As long as the Sidereal Times of the two factors in a TP is less than 4 minutes of clock time we know for sure the two factors are ON an angle; otherwise, we can’t always trust what our eyes see with standard charts, we must rely solely on Sidereal Times in order to identify possible TP’s in our radical charts. Also, note another very important factor with the above transit chart: transiting Saturn is partile cnj my Natal Moon. Checking my speculums, I see with the transit chart transiting Saturn rises with a ST of 11:37:19, so I have a TP of t. Saturn to my Natal Moon which will normally always be the case with t. cnj factors to our radical charts. This TP Saturn on my Moon is definitely pause for concern with me putting myself in an ‘out of ordinary’ situation by making a max bet in my life. A gambler with potent Saturn transits should definitely use caution for risking his bank rolls. However, I strongly feel Jim with his important SMA work has provided me with a major KEY for determining what this t. Saturn means in my immediate environment—I think it means my favorite college football team, Alabama, losses to Michigan St.—a major bummer. I would just as soon lose a possible bet and see Bama win. This may mean I will make a max bet taking Michigan St and 10 points. If I make this max bet taking Michigan St, BAMA could still win the game and I win my bet as long as Bama does not win by more than 10 points. You see there is a push-pull situation here with my TP’s—what’s it going to be—Bama loosing for a TP Moon- Saturn downer, but I win my bet for a TP Moon Jupiter effect, or Bama winning for a TP Moon Jupiter effect, but I lose my bet for a TP Moon-Saturn downer. Jim’s latest Super Bowl works says I will win my $ bets, but my team goes down in defeat. Also, there is another major Moon-Saturn possibility in my immediate environment: My dear mother-in-law is in trouble with her health which could manifest this TP Moon-Saturn. Anyway, fwiw, I wanted to demonstrate how I use and analyze TP’s in my life.

*There are precession factors to be considered with natal factors for calculating TP's less than 4 minutes of clock time.

[Jim Eshelman]

Dec 08, 2015

Steve, if you find those instructions for generating TP lists from Nova, please let me know. The most I could find over the weekend were the basic tables of paran crossings much as we can get (more easily, and more usably) from Solar Fire.

But let's spot check this just to see how much precession impacts this particular transit. I'll use December 31, 2015, 11:00 PM, for Springville.

Your Moon at 15°22' Scorpio crosses angles with the following longitudes:
16°03' Scorpio Asc
15°11' Scorpio MC/IC/EP/WP
14°04' Scorpio Dsc

In a chart for Springville (so we can get the paran right later in the process) for 11:00 PM CST on New Year's Eve, Jupiter at 28°12' Leo is on MC when the MC longitude is 28°44' Leo. So, I use the Rectify button on the game chart and force the MC to 28°44' Leo and find this gives an Ascendant of 15°13' Scorpio.

So, Jupiter is on MC when the local Ascendant is 15°13' Scorpio, and your Moon rises when the Ascendant is 16°03' Scorpio. So your Moon is 0°50' from Ascendant, or just under 1°.

In this case, it stays in orb, though it isn't as exact as you originally thought when you calculated the paran Tropically.

For the other part of it, the calculations are simpler. As mentioned above, your Moon at 15°22' Scorpio crosses angles with the following longitudes:
16°03' Scorpio Asc
15°11' Scorpio MC/IC/EP/WP
14°04' Scorpio Dsc

Transiting Saturn is 16°12' Scorpio at game end, so you have Saturn partile conjunct your Moon ecliptically regardless (0°50'). Is it better or worse with the parans? That transiting Saturn crosses angles with the following longitudes:
15°19' Scorpio Asc
16°26' Scorpio MC/IC/EP/WP
17°47' Scorpio Dsc

So, when rising together they are 0°44' apart, and on all other angles they are out of orb.

[Jim Eshelman]

Dec 08, 2015

Is it better or worse with the parans?

It is definitely worse when a potential daily malefic paran becomes active at those minutes during the day; but, only when ‘out of the ordinary’ stuff is happening relative to one’s immediate environment. For example: If my Mother-In-Law was to die or become terminally ill—the exact time for the news of this could be when the Moon-Saturn paran became active during the day. Or, if the Moon-Saturn paran became active during the course of game I bet on then it would probably time when it became obvious to me that I lost a bet or my favorite team was going to lose the game. Last week I experience a moment in my life with a t. Sun-n. Moon paran, I think (precession factor?), at the exact end of a movie and I definitely found myself in an ‘out of ordinary’ environment at a special movie screening with the wine & lunch afterwards. If one is in their everyday ho-hum ordinary course of living-- the active parans will produce peak knee-jerk psychological reactions but the potency will not be noticed as much as if you were in an ‘out of ordinary’ environment other than your normal living environment. Another example: When I first tested potential & active parans I was on a 4 day gambling trip---definitely in an ‘out of ordinary’ environment. I think I planned this trip with t. Jupiter in potential paran to my n. Moon all 4 days. When this TP Moon-Jup combo became active I would hit lucky streaks. But also on this trip I planned for one day when a potential t. Moon would cnj my n. Jupiter on my Asc, and at the time of day when this became active is when I was dealt 4 7’s for a $500.00 win on a $5.00 bet. You see—it was a double whammy of Moon-Jupiter symbolism involving TP’s with the active TP’s timing key psychological benefic moments in my life. What I was doing in the 90’s was electing optimum benefic times (days-potential TP’s & minutes active TP,s)-- and it was working in an ‘out of ordinary’ manner. You see—I was choosing a time and place—and placing myself in an ‘out of ordinary’ environment.

Steve, if you find those instructions for generating TP lists from Nova, please let me know. The most I could find over the weekend were the basic tables of paran crossings much as we can get (more easily, and more usably) from Solar Fire.

Indeed I will! But I am such a dunce with this new program NC-- astrolabe will probably have to write detailed instruction where I will be able to manipulate the program to give me the TP list. You should understand the original Dos Nova program-- nowhere in the manual told me how to list TP’s. I had to get a friend who was very familiar with Dos to call Hand, and Hand gave him special instructions in order to customize Nova to generate TP’s lists. This whole process took us a half day but it damn sure was worth the pain to extract this info. Matthew & I worked on this same objective with SF and got nowhere. When JSAD told me NC was in Window’s format the lady who I talked with for 15 minutes said she clearly understood my TP list objective I use to work with Dos Nova, and said she could carry me through the steps for us to see TP lists. I hope I did not miss- understand or if she was BS me. I am going to try reach her this afternoon.

[Jim Eshelman]

Dec 08, 2015

BTW, I mailed your NC CD with manual yesterday. You should get no later than Fri. You may have to see manual before figuring out the Paran graphic Madalyn e-mailed.

Unfortunately, I may have figured it out. I'll have to walk through it tonight. I think all it is doing is showing all points natal and transiting angularity around the clock (= around the circle), and then you have to visually look at all of these lines to see if any of the 40 transiting planet lines is on an angle at the same time as any of the 40 natal planet lines (by rotating the wheel until each one comes up to an angle).

I think.

I'll have to walk through it to be sure. In any case, she isn't providing a way to generate a list of any kind, or have the software identify the TP occasions, as far as I can tell. And, furthermore, these (in her demonstration) are all Tropical positions.

OK, when you tell me we ain't got what we need, I will try to contact Robert Hand and present the task to him for his take.

We ain't got it.

There are many, many things wrong. Let me tell you the two biggest: (1) It isn't the report you want. (2) They aren't even doing the math right. Even if that were all working, they wouldn't be adjusting for precession, which nobody seems to have ever thought about with parans.

So, in order:

(1) It isn't the report you want. Let me explain what this clock (should be called 24-hour clock, but she kept calling it 14-hour clock) is intending to do.
For the natal chart and transits for one specific moment in time, it produces a clock that has wrapped around it the sidereal times at which each planet crosses each angle. For example, you could have the Dallas rising, setting, culminating, and anticulminating of all the planets at the exact time Kennedy was shot, plus the rising, setting, culminating, and anticulminating clock times of Kennedy's natal chart (again, for the latitude of Dallas). This means that you have a graphic design that lets you see if angle-crossing lines look close to each other. (The example in the email had lines for natal Sun on IC or Sun-I, natal Uranus rising or Uranus-E, and transiting Mercury on IC or T-Mercury-I lines all on top of each other.) I'm sure it is calculating this accurately, but it isn't very useful for your purposes. You have to look at each individual day and part of a day separately, it gives no table or date-time output, you have to visually compare 80 positions against each other to see if any of them look like they fall next to each other, you can't get ST or RAMC or clock time to measure actual orbs... etc.

(2) Then... this one actually disgusts me a bit because it means that nobody ever even tested it... it works Tropically but not Sidereally. Calculate Kennedy's natal chart for Dallas Sidereally and see how the planet distribution is on the clock, then switch the same chart over to Tropical. The times jump about two yours. Two hours is a magic amount, because it tells me they are sing the Sidereal longitude in the formula that should have the Tropical longitude. The Tropical vs. Sidereal "clocks" for Kennedy for Dallas are dramatically different from each other. It's utterly broken. (Do it yourself to see.)

I'm sorry.

So you can test, here are the steps. For the sample, to see the problem, you don't even have to worry about relocating it (though, of course, you do have to relocate it in a real life example), Just use your natal for your birthplace as a sample. But let's start with a Tropical chart.

Open the saved Tropical chart. Click the Dial 360 tab at the top. In the Working Data pop-up box, don't worry about the date for now (any date will do for natal planets, for demonstration). Click LOAD, pick the "Parans Planets.pnts" file, double click on it.

Now you see your chart with lots of lines on it. Each one is marked by a planet and an angle (M, I, E, W for MC, IC, East=Asc, West=Dsc). For example, just after 11 o'clock (the "11" on the inmost circle, just to the left of the big "12 Noon"). notice Moon-M line is close to Pluto-W line. This means your Moon is on MC when your Pluto is on Descendant. (We're not worrying about orb right now, They're pretty close.)

Next, close the chart and reopen it. Go back to the 360 Dial. In the lower right, click on the word Tropical. In the pop-up box, under Zodiac Type, change Tropical to Fagan-Allen. Click OK. As before, click Load, then load Parans Planets. Look in the same spot just after 11 o'clock and you will not see the Moon and Pluto lines like before. Instead, you will see them at about 9:30, with Saturn-West added. It's an entirely different set of calculations, different parans, different times, all because they treated the Sidereal longitude as if it were a Tropical longitude.

Again, I'm sorry to bring the bad news.

Not only is the thing she described to you on the phone not what you want, it doesn't even work right.

[Jim Eshelman]

Dec 09, 2015

It is difficult if not impossible to find computer programs that meet all of my needs. In lieu of doing my own programming again, I had to find an industrial strength software program; a Swiss army knife of astrology programs, if you will, along with technically proficient professionals I can work with. Efficiency and economy were also important considerations, yet no one program met my requirements until we tried SIRIUS by Cosmic Patterns. Robert Hand

I am in the process trying to make personal contact with Robert to see if SIRIUS can be customized to list TP’s just like Hand’s original DOS Nova program did in the 90’s.

Just sent the following e-mail to Robert:

Hi Robert, hope thing are well in your life.
Back in the early 80’’s I thoroughly enjoyed your book on ‘Essays in Astrology,’ particularly your essay on ‘A New Approach to Transits.’ I don’t know if you remember but I was one of the first in line to purchase your program Nova, and then a friend of mine, Cal Joyner, got specific directions from you how to customize Transiting Parans with Nova. Of course that was many, many Moons ago, and since those days my Dos Computer has bitten the dust along with Nova. I did a-lot research with Transiting Parans (TP’s) and was very impressed using TP’s with electing time & place for travel purposes. I note you endorse the program SIRIUS. Can I customize SIRIUS to give me a TP list of Sidereal Times with a transit chart and radical chart like I could do with Nova?
Thanks.

[Jim Eshelman]

SOLUTION: Because rising / setting / culminating are derived from RA and declination, and RA/dec are derived from Tropical longitude and latitude, the correct method of comparing rising/setting/etc. of one date to rising/setting/etc. at another is to delete from natal planets the accrued precession and recalculate new RA/Dec, and use these to calculate new rising/setting/etc. times. The steps for this are: (1) Take the natal Sidereal longitude. (2) Subtract the SVP for the event date to get a "precessed" [sic] Tropical position. (3) Use this adjusted natal position and the natal celestial latitude to calculate new RA/Dec for the event date. (4) Use these to calculate new rise/set/etc. times for the natal positions, and compare these to the transiting positions.

Would that be Subtract the SVP for the event date to get a "precessed" [sic] Tropical position or would that be
Subtract the SVP for the event date and add 30° to get a "precessed" [sic] Tropical position?

I take "SVP" not to be simply (for today) 5°02'15", but to be 5°02'15" Pisces. So the first way is correct.

But, as you say, subtracting 5°02'15" Pisces is the same as subtracting 5°02'15" and adding a sign

[Jim Eshelman]

Dec 11, 2015

So, if we can find a trustworthy programmer with Jim’s commutation with the programmer, it should be a relative easy task for the programmer to write us a customize file to put in the pages of Solar Fire to offer us a list of TP’s (radical factors corrected for precession) for any place in the World we may wish to travel???

The Pages section is all static, I think. I can't find anything there that is dynamic (e.g., moving bodies like transits vs. natal). But we could certainly come a long way in this process, to where we at least could do a spot-check on any given moment in time you picked.

For example, as Pages perhaps it could look like this, for maximum flexibility:

1. Run only for a biwheel (e.g.: an animated biwheel of transits over natal, or any other combination such as two people's charts for comparison or whatever).
2. Use the outer wheel (e.g., transits over the natal) as the one that marks the epoch or point in time for which the SVP is used.
3. Behind the scenes, adjust the inner wheel for precession (using the epoch of the outer wheel) and calculate the paran table for each chart.
4. Display these side-by-side, in two columns, sorted in numerical order, for easy visual comparison.
5. Also isolate any parans between Column A and Column B at the top, with a user-selectable orb defaulting to 1°.
6. Flash a warning if both charts aren't calculated for the same geographic latitude.

You could then do an "Animate Biwheel" on a relocated natal, run the page for a check, close the page, and move the animated biwheel forward or backward. Not the same as generating a transit list (that would require new functionality in the Dynamic | Transits & Progressions module), but something to make this (a) perfect for checking specific events in hindsight, (b) vastly reducing the work of checking forward, and (c) give us much more functionality for comparing other kinds of scenarios.

[Jim Eshelman]

What do I need to do next?

find a programmer

The programmer will need some kind of documentation from Solar Fire's creators on how to access where the calculations are stored etc. You might actually want to contact the SF creators themselves. For them, this might be a very small thing that they would be willing to do on commission, and it would likely take them for less time than an outside (third party) programmer.

I'll post something on the Solar Fire users' Facebook page to see if I can get a lead, but you'll probably be more successful going through back channels. You probably can use what I just posted above as sufficient description.

SF has a Page Designer, of course (under Utilities), but it has to have access to calculated content.

[Jim Eshelman]

Dec 11, 2015

I just posted the following on the Solar Fire Astrology Software Astrologers page on Facebook. Solar Fire's creators monitor this page at least somewhat. I thought the page on the software itself would be better, but I can't post to it (it seems to be for "announce" purposes only). This might get the right people's attention.

We want to discuss with Solar Fire's programmers possibly commissioning a new Page design - something that requires knowledge of hooks into the program and new data massaging (not just a usual Page Designer request that would be user-created). Who would we approach and how would we go about this? Thanks in advance!

Dec 16, 2015

No response at all from the SF group through their Facebook page.

[Jim Eshelman]

Dec 17, 2015

Jim, a friend paid me a visit last week and revived one of my old commuters which contained DOS & Nova, but he could not get my new Printer to print in order to print TP’s lists. Nova does not have a ‘View’ function for TP’s. My friend strongly suspects the Print Drivers are for the old Dot Matrix Printers. I am now in the process of trying to re-learn (remember) the key strokes in order to obtain TP’s lists. If I can achieve this objective I want to do some research with past Super Bowls and College National Championship games scanning for TP’s to the Capsolar, CapQ’s, Cansolar & CanQ’s. However, I have my doubts this can improve on your latest SMA research with Super Bowls. Revisiting Nova’s very tedious instruction manual I find these words by Hand:

KM.FMT file for customizing Paran Co-Transits to Natal and Transiting Combinations. Quotidian/KM: This stands for the quotidian (by the earth’s daily rotation) “Kinetic Mundoscope”. This option allows you to calculate and print PARAN CO-TRANSITS to the natal and dynamic angles.

Hand does address the Precession issue with Nova, but I don’t know for sure if the precession issue applies to the lists of TP’s. From Nova’s manual Hand says:

Precession Correction Y/N

Caution: Always type N (cr) TO SAY NO to this question if you are using any one of the Sidereal Zodiacs! The Sidereal Ayanamsha takes care of this automatically! Precession correcting transits, especially IF SEARCHING FOR EVENT TRANSITS that happened sometimes after birth (age 36 and after) will expunge accrued precession from birth epoch to event epoch.

I am not sure if Hands TP’s list accounts for and corrects this precession issue. Another issue which may be a problem are the Ephemeris Generators for Nova’s Dynamic Predictive Module which is used for TP’s. I am checking to see the Ephemeris ‘time frames’ for this TP Module. Matthew and I met with complete frustration with SF in trying to get them to write us a file for SF to handle TP’s lists. Matthew always said the ‘Mundo Large File’ in SF offers Sidereal Times for the angled planets and it should be a simple procedure for someone at SF to write us a special file for TP’s lists. Let’s keep our fingers crossed someone at SF will contact us for a possible purchased TP list file.

[Jim Eshelman]

Dec 17, 2015

1. I'll look for those files when I'm at home and see if the same configuration options are there. Keep me posted on your reconstruction of methodology.

2. I would be very surprised - startled! - if precession correction is applied to parans by the program. However, I have Uranus transits right now, so you may yet benefit from my surprise

3. The kind of Page I outlined recently should be a modest undertaking - not so modest that they'd likely do it for a tiny user pool, but modest enough that your offer to pay them something should catch their attention. But it's a matter of getting someone's attention, and so far nobody on the SF Facebook user community (which is frequented by SF owners, too) has offered anything (except one guy who commented more casually).

At this point, I think you may have to call / contact SF's creators directly.

I did this once before with no results but today is a different day. Any help on direct contact info would be helpful. Jim, I think you need to talk to a ‘creator’ since you understand the correct technical lingo and I don’t. If you see it can be done, I will take over negotiating a purchase price.

Yes, I'll eventually have to talk to them for fine points; but, to make it more efficient, you can use the bullet point description I wrote the other day to tell them what we want. It will at least get them in the ballpark, and might actually be all they need.

[Jim Eshelman]

For convenience, here is the summary from earlier. Notice this could be of use to Tropicalists and Siderealists equally.

For example, as Pages perhaps it could look like this, for maximum flexibility:

1. Run only for a biwheel (e.g.: an animated biwheel of transits over natal, or any other combination such as two people's charts for comparison or whatever).
2. Use the outer wheel (e.g., transits over the natal) as the one that marks the epoch or point in time for which the SVP is used.
3. Behind the scenes, adjust the inner wheel for precession (using the epoch of the outer wheel) and calculate the paran table for each chart.
4. Display these side-by-side, in two columns, sorted in numerical order, for easy visual comparison.
5. Also isolate any parans between Column A and Column B at the top, with a user-selectable orb defaulting to 1°.
6. Flash a warning if both charts aren't calculated for the same geographic latitude.

You could then do an "Animate Biwheel" on a relocated natal, run the page for a check, close the page, and move the animated biwheel forward or backward. Not the same as generating a transit list (that would require new functionality in the Dynamic | Transits & Progressions module), but something to make this (a) perfect for checking specific events in hindsight, (b) vastly reducing the work of checking forward, and (c) give us much more functionality for comparing other kinds of scenarios.

[Jim Eshelman]

Send them a link to Sidereal Mundane Astrology while you're at it.

I just got off the phone (1 352 373 1504) with Sirius software (Gainesville, Fl) asking about TP’s. They are going to have the programmer (David) of Sirius contact me. I was told David has worked with Robert Hand in the past—so I am hoping David can offer some options for us on TP’s. Gainesville is not very far from where I live, so, if I like what David has to say I may make an appointment with David to discuss in details about TP's.

Neat! - And remember, the (important) precession issue aside, the Page outlined above would be useful to Tropical astrologers also

[Jim Eshelman]

Dec 17, 2015

Jim, just had about an hour chart with David at Sirius and have already negotiated a very reasonable price for David to write a file for Sirius to handle what we need. He needs clearance from the owner of the company but says that will not be a problem. I forgot and did not discuss the precession issue but David seems to understand what we need. I told him I was working with a colleague in LA who has final say so if the file will handle our TP’s issues. He wants me to e-mail him Hand’s article to make sure we are on the same page. I will talk with him after he receives my e-mail. Do you see the precession issue a problem for David? Eventually I want you to talk with David to make sure you have no concerns.

Excellent news! If he follows what I laid out in the notes above, the precession issue should not be a problem. But if it's not VERY EXPLICITLY discussed with him, it won't happen. Please send him exactly what I wrote above as a product description.

It has been sent to him by e-mail. Will forward you his response.

The following link is David Cochrane --the programmer I spoke with about TP's
https://plus.google.com/+DavidCochrane100/posts

[Jim Eshelman]

Dec 19, 2015

I am reading Hand's essays now and wanted to note here that he says on p. 99-100 in that book about finding parans that Neil Michelsen's Astro Computing Services in San Diego, California, does these calculations. "The usual format is to give the sidereal time or the right ascension of the Midheaven at the time each of the bodies would rise, culminate, set and make the lower culmination.... and he carries on to say; "If any one of the four S.T.'s or RAMC of any planet is conjunct any one of the four S.T.'s or RAMC of another planet, they are in paran."

So in his work he seems to be actually working with sidereal calculations.

Sidereal Time is not a sidereal measurement. It's explicitly a Tropical measurement.

[Jim Eshelman]

Dec 22, 2015

Jim, just got David's response on your wish list with TP's:

Don't worry about sending any money. I am starting work on a transiting house cusps to natal planets with options in zodiac longitude and in mundo. This is a feature we need anyway. I will work on it when other things are not too pressing. Within a month or two I will send you an example listing that I have produced and we can see what we want to do from there. I think I will get the basic listing running within a few months anyway and then if you want more details and additional features, we can work out some kind of payment but I need to have these basic features anyway so I can do this and we can see where we want to go after the basic information is available.

I remember Jim Eshelman's book on solar returns. He has always had lots of innovative ideas based on good technical foundations. We can look into the possibility of adding some of these features after the basics are available. I doubt that I will do most of this because the demand isn't very great and there are several other high priority things I am working on but I will just proceed with small incremental steps and see how it goes.

If you don't hear from me by about mid February, email me to check in to see how it is going.

Thanks!
David

This sounds like he's willing to look at the PSSR. Cool!

But... the rest... transiting house cusps to natal planets? At least from his description, I don't think this is what we want at all. He might be seeing that the thing we asked for is a subset of what he has to write for this particular planned module but, at least from what he's written here, it doesn't sound like the same thing. They already have paran-calculation code in SF in the Star Parans section, and that's the basic stuff he needs for this.

Yes, I think all the basic tools we need are in SF already. (I mean, I could design entirely new products, but at least all the techniques are there.)

Favorite new product: Astro-mapping where you get shaded areas where the planets are within a user-specifiable orb of an angle, with zones overlapping, and the ability to layer multiple simultaneous charts (e.g., multiple simultaneous ingresses) from a checkbox. - See, new product, though one that would make our life awesomely improved. (Add ability to interface mundane proximity to horizon and meridian with ecliptical squares to angles in the same map, and also show these on the shaded zones).

[Jim Eshelman]

Reposting this thread now, six years after we all wrote it. I find no indication of what came out of the discussion with that programmer. In any case, here is the thread as an archive item or in case anyone wants to discuss further. (Mike has said that eventually TMSA will have the paran-transit tracking we want, though there are a lot of other important things probably getting earlier priority.)