JAE SSR 2023 (questions & planning)

[Jim Eshelman]

The SSR for home isn't bad at all - quite the contrary - but can be improved. I'm a little concerned with Jupiter seeming to get a pounding, despite the fact that the overall message is super positive based on angularity. Here are the numbers if I just stay home:

The SSR will occur October 10, 2023, 7:46:09 PM PDT.
JUPITER = 10
Benefic = 18, Malefic = 8
Dignity = 10, Indignity = 5
Change = 9
Spotlight = 0
Natal = 21, Transiting = 14

t Uranus on Asc -3°53'
r Venus on Dsc -1°42'
----------------------------
t Jupiter on Asc +1°06'
r Saturn on Dsc +2°37'
r Jupiter on IC +2°57'
r Uranus on IC +3°20'
t Mars on WP +1°11'
t Pluto on MC +3°24' stationary
r Mercury on Dsc +5°36'

t Pluto op r Uranus 0°14'
r Jupiter-Uranus co 0°17'
r Jupiter-Saturn sq 0°20' M
t Mars sq r Jupiter 0°36'
t Pluto op r Jupiter 0°37'
r Saturn-Uranus sq 0°43'
t Mars sq r Uranus 0°53'
t Pluto op r Saturn 0°57' M
t Jupiter op r Mercury 1°02'
t Mars-Pluto sq 1°24'
t Jupiter op r Saturn 1°31' M
t Jupiter sq r Jupiter 1°51' M
t Pluto op r Mercury 2°03' M
t Uranus op r Venus 2°11' M
t Jupiter sq r Uranus 2°14' M
r Mercury-Uranus sq 2°17' M
r Mercury-Saturn co 2°24'
t Jupiter-Pluto sq 2°28'
r Mercury-Jupiter sq 2°39' M
t Jupiter op r Venus 2°48' M

Other Partile Aspects
t Mars sq r Mars 0°11' M
t Mars co r Neptune 0°31' M
-- r Mars-Neptune 0°20' M
t Venus-Saturn op 0°47'

[Jim Eshelman]

But here is the same chart for Solvang, CA. (There are other locations due north of there less than an hour that are in obscure places but might have slightly tighter angularity mixes, but Solvang is pretty good - and we know it and like to go there.

t Uranus on Asc -5°10'
r Venus on Dsc -2°54'
t Mars on WP -0°34'
t Jupiter on Asc -0°15'
---------------------------
r Jupiter on IC 0°00'
r Uranus on IC +0°21'
t Pluto on MC +0°28' stationary
r Saturn on Dsc +1°15'
r Mercury on Dsc +4°39'
r Neptune on WP +1°19'
r Mars on MC +7°45'

t Pluto op r Uranus 0°06' M
t Jupiter sq r Jupiter 0°15' M
r Jupiter-Uranus co 0°17'
t Pluto op r Jupiter 0°28' M
t Mars co r Neptune 0°29' M
t Jupiter sq r Uranus 0°36' M
t Mars sq r Jupiter 0°36'
t Jupiter-Pluto sq 0°42' M
t Pluto sq r Saturn 0°47' M
t Mars sq r Uranus 0°53'
r Saturn-Uranus sq 0°54' M
t Jupiter op r Mercury 1°02'
r Jupiter-Saturn sq 1°15' M
t Mars-Pluto sq 1°24'
t Mars sq r Mars 1°24' M
t Pluto sq r Neptune 1°29'
t Jupiter op r Saturn 1°30' M
r Mars-Neptune sq 1°52' M
r Uranus-Neptune sq 2°00'
r Jupiter-Neptune sq 2°16'
t Uranus op r Venus 2°17' M
r Mercury-Saturn 2°24'
t Jupiter op r Venus 2°39' M
t Mars co r Pluto 2°53' M
r Venus-Jupiter sq 2°54' M

[Jim Eshelman]

For Solvang, here is the same chart with only Class 2 angularities (which affects the aspects that show also). This gives a simplified view of the chart (basically stripping out anything involving natal Mars or Neptune).

t Uranus on Asc -5°10'
r Venus on Dsc -2°54'
t Mars on WP -0°34'
t Jupiter on Asc -0°15'
r Jupiter on IC 0°00'
r Uranus on IC +0°21'
t Pluto on MC +0°28' stationary
r Saturn on Dsc +1°15'
r Mercury on Dsc +4°39'

t Pluto op r Uranus 0°06' M
t Jupiter sq r Jupiter 0°15' M
r Jupiter-Uranus co 0°17'
t Pluto op r Jupiter 0°28' M
t Mars co r Neptune 0°29' M
t Jupiter sq r Uranus 0°36' M
t Mars sq r Jupiter 0°36'
t Jupiter-Pluto sq 0°42' M
t Pluto sq r Saturn 0°47' M
t Mars sq r Uranus 0°53'
r Saturn-Uranus sq 0°54' M
t Jupiter op r Mercury 1°02'
r Jupiter-Saturn sq 1°15' M
t Mars-Pluto sq 1°24'
t Jupiter op r Saturn 1°30' M
t Uranus op r Venus 2°17' M
r Mercury-Saturn 2°24'
t Jupiter op r Venus 2°39' M
t Mars co r Pluto 2°53' M
r Venus-Jupiter sq 2°54' M

[Jim Eshelman]

There's another feature this chart will give the chance to test: PVP aspects in SSRs. TMSA gives us azimuth of precessed positions of natal planets and, from that alone, we see a little bit more than we would see without it:

0°00 r Jupiter
0°15' r Uranus
180°17' t Pluto
272°38' r Sun

Pluto opposite natal Jupiter-Uranus is already visible in the normal view of the chart, but we now add natal Sun square them. Furthermore, transiting Jupiter is involved! Since we don't have Meridian Longitude yet (I can't easily check precessed natal planet ML with what I have available), let's just say that t Jupiter 0°15' before Ascendant is surely square all four of these planets except maybe too wide for Sun.

Then again, how do we interpret this differently from what we already see? Sun gets involved, but everything else the same and I'm not sure how we would know the Sun is involved when the angles are so strongly involved. Here is the same set of planets just by PVL (mundoscope):

28°45' 6H - r Saturn
29°32' 9H - t Pluto
29°39' 3H - r Uranus
0°00' 4H - r Jupiter
0°15' 1H - t Jupiter
2°54' 7H - r Venus

[FlorencedeZ.]

Hi Jim,
In my opinion Solvang just looks great.
Both t. Jupiter and r. Jupiter are in the driver's seat for the Solar year which is wonderful.
Regards, Flo

[Jim Eshelman]

Thanks, Flo. I'm not concerned about the Jupiter-Saturn - especially with transiting Jupiter to natal Saturn - or even Pluto to Jupiter to much but, rather, transiting MARS AND PLUTO to natal Jupiter (and Uranus).

I'd like to think the two super-angular Jupiter's prevail but, with Mars-Pluto, I thought I'd get extra opinions.

[FlorencedeZ.]

Ah yes, true. I read too fast and overlooked this.
Perhaps others can jump in and come up with extra opinions.
Regards, Flo

[Patrick Machado]

Question 1 for everybody: Does this chart have significant advantages/disadvantages over the one above for Solvang.

It depends on how exactly these overwhelming (within minutes) orbs work. If within 3' is enough, the chart for the SLO fire station might be better because while both have a Jupiter within this range, the other Jupiter there is closer than "the other Jupiter" in the chart for Solvang. It might also be worth considering that the "overwhelming" orb in the chart for the fire station is transiting Jupiter as opposed to natal for Solvang.

Now, if within 5' is enough, in the chart for the fire station "the other Jupiter" (natal, in this case) also has an "overwhelming" orb. For Solvang, only one Jupiter has such an orb. I also like that, for the fire station, not only is the closest aspect Jupiter-to-Jupiter, but it also has that precise orb.

To sum it up, there's a decent chance that the fire station chart is better, while the only way the Solvang chart is better is if even 3' isn't enough for the desired effect.

Question 2 for everybody is my original one: These charts are constructed to maximize the Jupiter angularity (down to 0°00' perhaps). The Jupiter (along with some good things) has some very harsh aspects. Which wins? Does this show as "Jupiter is overwhelmingly strong, the year is good, and it will be quite a complex ride?" Or as, "Jupiter being this strong, the aspects to it are overwhelmingly strong and prevail?" In short, does angular Jupiter primarily define the time, or does AFFLICTED Jupiter define the time? Is this positive financial overhaul or permanent financial ruin? (With Pluto, there's not much room for anything in between.)

My initial impression was: angular Jupiter defines the time, and while its aspects are present during that time, the nature of the year is set by Jupiter as a standalone factor. Hence, the outcome must be positive.

Not knowing, that's the theory I'd go with.

[Jim Eshelman]

It is highly unlikely we'll be able to travel for several months, meaning that I am not getting away anywhere - even a couple of hours - for my birthday. That settles the whole matter I've been struggling to resolve since May: I'm having the SSR at home.

Since this chart has nine foreground planets and 20 foreground aspects, - all within Class 2! - to simplify it a bit here is the forthcoming SSR for home solar excluding all but Class 1 angularities and their aspects (though I kept minor angles at 2°). This is narrower than I like to get, and misses important things [e.g., the stationary Pluto is missing despite its likely importance) but will show the loudest features of the chart. (I think this is too narrow a view, too many important aspects seem missing - but here we go.)

r Venus on Dsc -1°42'
----------------------------
t Jupiter on Asc +1°06'
t Mars on WP +1°11'
r Saturn on Dsc +2°37'
r Jupiter on IC +2°57'

r Jupiter-Saturn sq 0°20' M
t Mars sq r Jupiter 0°36'
t Jupiter op r Saturn 1°31' M
t Jupiter sq r Jupiter 1°51' M
t Jupiter op r Venus 2°48' M


Or, to use Steve's approach, I'll leave all the full, wide foreground orbs but only include aspects that are partile (This gives a different looking chart.)

t Pluto op r Uranus 0°14'
r Jupiter-Uranus co 0°17'
r Jupiter-Saturn sq 0°20' M
t Mars sq r Jupiter 0°36'
t Pluto op r Jupiter 0°37'
r Saturn-Uranus sq 0°43'
t Mars sq r Uranus 0°53'
t Pluto op r Saturn 0°57' M

[SteveS]

Jim, I realize you seek much more details than me when analyzing a SSR. But for a quick rapid analysis, I see your next SSR as a very fortunate SSR with the main angular theme of mundo Jupiter 1,01 cnj SSR ASC with a strong flavor of angular SSR Uranus 3,57 cnj SSR ASC. Also, a double whammy of angular Jup-Ur with your Natal partile Jup-Ur cnj under 2 degrees cnj SSR IC, again flavored with Pluto op your Natal Jup-Ur cnj.

I also see a strong “out of the ordinary/outstanding incident” aspect of angular SSR Jup 1,01 op Natal Mercury as a very strong influence with your next SSR. Do you see any faults with my quick analysis here?

[Jim Eshelman]

Thanks, Steve.

My concern all alonv: What do you make of the Mars-Pluto square and the double Mars-Pluto to natal Jupiter-Uranus?

[SteveS]

Jim asked:

What do you make of the Mars-Pluto square and the double Mars-Pluto to natal Jupiter-Uranus?

Nothing as manifesting as an “outstanding incident” unless beneficially so. Analyzing completely from the outside, I see all of the Mars-Pluto as some kind of driven force in the psyche, probably a continuation of your needs to finish all the main writings on Sidereal Astrology. It could be you exerting more energy than normal in your day work/job? But I certainly don't see it as a Red Flag with all of the Jupiter protection your have with your 2023 SSR.

Question: When you are looking at Natal aspects to SSR Planets, do you in your mind add onto the Natal Planet degree position accounting for Precession?

[Jim Eshelman]

Question: When you are looking at Natal aspects to SSR Planets, do you in your mind add onto the Natal Planet degree position accounting for Precession?

No need. That's already taken care of by using the Sidereal zodiac. For example:

2°49' Cap - t Pluto
3°20' Can - r Uranus
3°37' Can - r Jupiter
4°13' Lib - t Mars

Here we have a string of partile aspects that can be read exactly as is. No need to doctor for precession. (If we were trying to use Sidereal returns while working in the Tropical zodiac, we'd have to make that adjustment.)

Partile foreground aspects in the SSR include Mars to natal Jupiter-Uranus, Pluto to natal Jupiter-Uranus, and Pluto to natal Saturn. This is clearer from the mundo positions:

26°26' 9H - t Pluto
26°40' 3H - r Uranus
27°03' 3H - r Jupiter
27°23' 6H - r Saturn
28°54' 12H - t Jupiter

[SteveS]

Partile foreground aspects in the SSR include Mars to natal Jupiter-Uranus, Pluto to natal Jupiter-Uranus, and Pluto to natal Saturn. This is clearer from the mundo positions:

26°26' 9H - t Pluto
26°40' 3H - r Uranus
27°03' 3H - r Jupiter
27°23' 6H - r Saturn
28°54' 12H - t Jupiter

Jim, is there an easy way to see the same as above with SF, or no, must use TMSA?

[Jim Eshelman]

Partile foreground aspects in the SSR include Mars to natal Jupiter-Uranus, Pluto to natal Jupiter-Uranus, and Pluto to natal Saturn. This is clearer from the mundo positions:

26°26' 9H - t Pluto
26°40' 3H - r Uranus
27°03' 3H - r Jupiter
27°23' 6H - r Saturn
28°54' 12H - t Jupiter

Jim, is there an easy way to see the same as above with SF, or no, must use TMSA?

Not an easy way to get the NATAL planets that way because you have to precess them. (You can't just add the precession to the mundane positions. You have to add them to the natal longitudes, recalculate a new right ascension and declination, then use the new RA and Dec to recalculate mundoscope positions. Not something most people can or will do!) - Before TMSA we used an Excel spreadsheet to make it easier.

TMSA is by far the best option! For return charts, it's priceless! At this point, looking at returns would seem such a struggle that it wold be discouraging. (This was the biggest reason Mike did TMSA in the first place, I think.)

Here's the relevant stuff from TMSA, though, showing all the angularities, foreground aspects (20 aspects!), and non-foreground partile aspects:

Code: Select all

Pl Longitude   Lat   Speed    RA    Decl    Azi     Alt     PVL    Ang G
                           Transiting Planets                           
Ju 18Ar22'33"  1S25 - 6'36"  41°26' 14N31  73° 7' + 1° 3' 358°54' 100% A 
Ma  4Li13' 5"  0N16 +40'29" 207°20' 10S59 263°47' -10°30' 169°26'  99% W 
Pl  2Cp49'18"  2S44 + 0' 0" 300°34' 23S16 182°17' +32°38' 266°26'  97% M 
Ur 27Ar16'38"  0S19 - 1'55"  50° 1' 18N 3  65°24' - 3°32'   3°53'  96% A 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            Radical Planets                             
Ve  1Sc52'48"  5S48 +29'45" 233°11' 25S 7 238° 1' + 1°26' 181°42'  99% D 
Sa 14Li56'37"  2N10 + 6'50" 218°18' 12S46 256°18' - 2°32' 177°23'  98% D 
Ju  3Cn36'46"  0N 9 + 6'44" 120°50' 20N34   2° 6' -35°20'  87° 3'  98% I 
Ur  3Cn19'58"  0N30 + 1'17" 120°37' 20N58   2°20' -34°56'  86°40'  97% I 
Me 17Li21' 3"  3S10 +44'52" 218°57' 18S35 251° 7' - 5°18' 174°24'  92% D 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Class 1 Aspects      Other Partile Aspects                          
tMa sq tPl  1°24' 96%   tVe op tSa  0°47' 99%                           
tJu sq tPl  2°28' 88% M  ----------------------                         
----------------------  tMa sq rMa  0°11'100% M                         
tMa sq rJu  0°36' 99%   tMa co rNe  0°31' 99% M                         
tMa sq rUr  0°53' 98%    ----------------------                         
tJu op rMe  1° 2' 98%   rMa sq rNe  0°20'100% M                           
tJu op rVe  2°48' 85% M                          
tJu sq rJu  1°51' 93% M                                                 
tJu op rSa  1°31' 96% M                                                 
tJu sq rUr  2°14' 90% M                                                 
tUr op rVe  2°11' 91% M                                                 
tPl sq rMe  2° 3' 92% M                                                 
tPl op rJu  0°37' 99% M                                                 
tPl sq rSa  0°57' 98% M                                                 
tPl op rUr  0°14'100% M                                                 
----------------------                                                  
rMe sq rJu  2°39' 86% M                                                 
rMe co rSa  2°24' 89%                                                   
rMe sq rUr  2°17' 90% M                                                 
rJu sq rSa  0°20'100% M                                                 
rJu co rUr  0°17'100%                                                   
rSa sq rUr  0°43' 99% M 

[SteveS]

For return charts, it's priceless!

So, how do you read the above non-angular 5 planet aspected combination for your next SSR? And, on a scale of 1-10 how important would you rate the above non-angular aspected combination with your next SSR, with the higher number being more important? I have not read as much Sidereal Astrology material as you, but I can’t ever recall these type aspects discussed in any material for return charts. Were they ever discussed in your book ISR?

Not something most people can or will do!)

Indeed!

[Jim Eshelman]

So, how do you read the above non-angular 5 planet aspected combination for your next SSR?

That's the main problem: There's aren't five. There are TWENTY close hard aspects of only foreground planets. I could limit what I say to five aspects but I'm pretty sure I'd miss something fundamental.

My one main question from the beginning and still now is: Which do you trust more, the closest angularities or the aspects? (I lean increasingly to trusting the aspect after FIRST using just the angularities to get the overall weight of the chart.) Whether in Solvang her here, it boils down to: Is the chart best described by the loudly angular Jupiters (two of them - and connected) OR by the fact that Jupiter, being so powerfully angular, is MASSIVELY AFFLICTED by the double pounding of Mars-Pluto? This seems to be the difference between (1) a year of well-earned prosperity [given the Jupiter-to-Saturn transit] OR (2) a year of permanent financial devastation.

It seems either/or, and at the extremes instead of the middle. (Pluto is like that.) I say all this because, in mundane astrology, Mars and Pluto both aspecting a closely angular Jupiter appears repeatedly for areas that have been economically devastated, had their local economy completely destroyed, etc. (Pluto to Jupiter can go either way, but Mars to Jupiter always "hurts finances" - on the mildest day, it costs you money; and Pluto is anything but mild).

But... taking it back to the beginning. The most angular transiting planets are Jupiter (1°06' from Asc) and Mars (1°09' from WP). Not only does Jupiter have a slightly closer orb, it's on a major angle so that closer orb is noticeably stronger (TMSA rates the Jupiter at 100% and Mars at 99%). So, in brief, we have one benefic and one malefic (a tie) with the benefic slightly stronger.

For natal planets, I have Venus, Jupiter, and Saturn closest to the angles. (Uranus is in the wings but not quite Class 1 angularity, about three and a half degrees out.) This is more clearly biased toward benefic (2 to 1). Plus, I don't think of this natal Saturn as a malefic so much since it is opposed by transiting Jupiter: This, by itself, tends to relieve worries and stabilize practical concerns.

In fact, the natal planets seem to boil down to two benefics plus an "acquired" natal Jupiter-Saturn square (one that appears mundanely in the return, but not in the natal) that suggests personal conscientious financial management.

So, on balance, both transiting and natal planets foreground are more benefic than malefic. By the scoring system I've worked out to make this sort of thing objective, Benefic gets 18 points and Malefic gets 8. The chart (mechanically considered) as more than twice as much benefic energy just from foreground planets as from malefic planets: While there is good and bad in the year, the year looks positive on balance.

Except... this weighted score system isn't perfect. If I'm going to let natal Saturn be made "better" because transiting Jupiter aspects it closely, then I have to consider that natal Jupiter is damaged by the Mars transit.

So... starting to pull these pieces together... the chart has lots of positive stuff including transiting Jupiter just over 1° from Ascendant aspecting natal Jupiter, Saturn, and Uranus, and also aspecting natal Venus. I "acquire" a "natal" Jupiter-Saturn square for the year also. Besides this first impression, the clump of aspects that seem most important (even though transiting Pluto is more than 3° from an angle) is the ongoing Pluto transit to natal Jupiter-Uranus. This has been fundamentally good - I've been reshaping my finances. Pluto to Jupiter seems to show that kind of transformation of Jupiter things including finances (plus prestige and other matters) but Pluto to Jupiter can go either way - it can either lift one up, high and clear above prior station, or it can smash one down, stripping away everything. As a rule, it's a positive aspect. (I think that means that if given a chance it will be a positive aspect.) In this case, however, there is a big difference: Equal in strength to Pluto's aspects to natal Jupiter-Uranus are transiting MARS aspects to Jupiter-Uranus. This malefic would seem to tip the scales of the neutral Pluto so that Mars-Pluto to natal Jupiter-Uranus means a dramatic, high-impact change in prosperity that is sudden and destructive.

That seems the obvious reading if one weighs the aspects most heavily, or considers that an angular planet only manifests in terms of its aspects state. - How much to weight these aspects of the most angular planets over the angular planets themselves is the question for which I've been soliciting opinions since last spring: Is it fundamentally a Jupiter chart, or is it fundamentally a badly afflicted Jupiter chart? (These are quite different.)

The Mars-Pluto seems not just an attack, a destructive assault, but as if I'm caught and blamed for something.

There is other stuff in the chart, too. I "acquire" natal Mercury squares to Jupiter-Uranus as well as Saturn squares to them. Transiting Jupiter opposes natal Mercury almost partile; t Pluto squares natal Mercury about 2°. Mercury stuff is strong! With all of this, astrological research and writing are likely to continue. The single closest aspect in the entire chart is transiting Pluto's opposition to natal Uranus: This could be part of the major writing project also, or show that I'm in an even larger fundamental change pattern than I've seen so far.

Both Jupiter and Uranus transit natal Venus, which seems quite pleasurable with many good portents. However, the SSR also has a partile (background) Venus-Saturn opposition. For this primary look at the chart, I can ignore this, though I know I'll have to have a 'season' of Venus-Saturn stuff sometime during the year - I can come back to that later (probably should look at Anlunars to see when it hits the angles).

That covers all of the foreground aspects. It still leaves me with the underlying question: Is this primarily a "Jupiter and friends" chart of prosperity, or a badly afflicted Jupiter chart of ruin? (You can see why I'd like to know which to expect - and, with all the charts I've seen, I really don't which way this is more likely to go.)

I have not read as much Sidereal Astrology material as you, but I can’t ever recall these type aspects discussed in any material for return charts. Were they ever discussed in your book ISR?

Nope. I don't think I've seen anything quite like this before. We're breaking new ground here. I'm hoping someone else (you for example) have seen charts that seem to answer this question.

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

That covers all of the foreground aspects. It still leaves me with the underlying question: Is this primarily a "Jupiter and friends" chart of prosperity, or a badly afflicted Jupiter chart of ruin? (You can see why I'd like to know which to expect - and, with all the charts I've seen, I really don't which way this is more likely to go.)

I would be somewhat if this was a “chart of ruin.”
Jim wrote:

Nope. I don't think I've seen anything quite like this before. We're breaking new ground here. I'm hoping someone else (you for example) have seen charts that seem to answer this question.

No way Jim—I have not seen charts like this. This “new ground” of layering aspects is way over my head Jim, I am still old school and old . If I was concerned (and I am not) it was a “chart of ruin” I would want to see possible confirmation from a future lunar. I will later scan your first 6 months of lunars using Bradley’s methodology for looking for possible timing confirmation for when possible timing will occur for the main theme which I see as Jupiter. If it was a “chart of ruin” I would think high % it would show-up in a lunar. I don’t use Anlunars but will also look at the Anlunars. Using Bradley’s methodology of lunars to confirm or not confirm things from the SSR along with your “outstanding incidents” methodology has served me well in my practice, but I am always open to learning new methods.

[SteveS]

Jim, scanning lunars quickly 6 months out from your new solar year for “outstanding incidents” angular return charts:
Only 2 “outstanding incidents” lunars.
1: It becomes obvious your Oct 12 DSLR features the “outstanding incident” Me-Jup symbolism in your SSR, with DSLR angular Jupiter partile 180 your Natal Mercury. Keep us informed.
2: A Red Flag: April 6 SLR features an “outstanding incident” under 2 degree Mars-Saturn Paran on SLR DSC. Also, t Sun partile 180 Natal Sun on date and time of April 6 SLR (check demi-solar?). Also, for date and time of this SLR: Moon/Neptune close foreground = Natal DSC. I read this SLR as a possible death of a friend or someone close to you, but not financial ruin. Note: your preceding Mar 23 DSLR has a very potent Jup! When you have time would you do a TMSA analysis for your April 6 SLR? Thanks.

I will check for outstanding incident Anlunars later.

[Jim Eshelman]

If I was concerned (and I am not) it was a “chart of ruin” I would want to see possible confirmation from a future lunar.

I posted the SLRs and Demis for the SSR year a few months ago, but haven't looked at them since then - was going to wait until after the SSR set up:
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=7522

1: It becomes obvious your Oct 12 DSLR features the “outstanding incident” Me-Jup symbolism in your SSR, with DSLR angular Jupiter partile 180 your Natal Mercury.

I think the October 12 SLR is quite good. This was reassuring when I saw it because Marion's Demi the day before falls in the "tragic" (at least, "tragic feeling") category: I use our charts compared to each other as a "check" - If I have Jupiter a degree from MC and opposite my Mercury, she won't be undergoing anything tragic!

Overall, this is good. All the transiting foreground aspects are good, too. If I extend to non-foreground partile, I get the discouraging Saturn square to natal Uranus (40') but I don't think this will set the done of the chart, just add details (like further caretaking etc.). For everyone else's interest, here are the main elements of the chart:

r Venus on IC -9°46'
t Uranus on MC -7°23'
r Pluto on Asc -4°05'
---------------------------
t Jupiter on MC +1°15'
r Mercury on IC +3°29'
r Saturn on IC -4°24'

r Venus-Pluto sq 0°13'
t Jupiter op r Mercury 0°53'
r Mercury-Saturn co 0°54' M
t Uranus op r Venus 2°23' M

2: A Red Flag: April 6 SLR features an “outstanding incident” under 2 degree Mars-Saturn Paran on SLR DSC. Also, t Sun partile 180 Natal Sun on date and time of April 6 SLR (check demi-solar?). Also, for date and time of this SLR: Moon/Neptune close foreground = Natal DSC. I read this SLR as a possible death of a friend or someone close to you, but not financial ruin. Note: your preceding Mar 23 DSLR has a very potent Jup! When you have time would you do a TMSA analysis for your April 6 SLR? Thanks.

Agreed, this is a bad one. I already had marked it to make sure I have the SLR somewhere else. There's no good place in driving distance, so the current plan is I'll fly to Kansas City, Kansas and hang around the airport long enough for the SLR to come into play trade Mars-Saturn for Venus.

I'll check the Demi-SSR on principle, but generally find these worthless except as highlighting things already in the SSR - which is a good thing in this case. As it occurs within two or three hours of the SLR, I should check it both for here and KC.

I'm not worried about the Moon-Neptune to natal Descendant since that is ALWAYS here all the time. I don't think it's factor here any more than just having the transit is a factor.

Here is the full breakdown for the SLR if it occurs in LA:

r Moon on Dsc -9°57'
t Saturn on Dsc -1°48'
-------------------------
t Mars on Dsc +0°41'

t Mars-Saturn co 2°30' M

Other Partile Aspects
t Sun op r Sun 0°06'
t Mercury op r Neptune 0°23'

Here is the same SLR for Kansas City (just using the coordinates for the city; I haven't isolated the airport coordinates yet):

t Venus on WP -0°02'
--------------------------
t Neptune on Dsc +3°59'
r Moon on Dsc +7°50'

No foreground aspects

Other Partile Aspects
t Sun op r Sun 0°06' M
t Mercury op r Neptune 0°35'
r Mars-Neptune sq 0°52' M

[Jim Eshelman]

By the way, the April 20 Demi is also really rough. I've marked it, "Ouch! Do NOT be in LA for this one!" We'll sort that out when we get closer, especially when we see what I do for the SLR, but with all three malefics on angles, all pounding my Moon (ALL THREE!), I'm looking at the Denver airport at least or trying to catch a Jupiter-Uranus line flowing from South Carolina to Michigan - if money can be justified.

Anyway, the SLR (where I may go to KC) occurs April 6, 4:25 PM PDT. The Demi-SSR occurs the same day at 1:56 PM PDT. I don't expect anything at all from the DSSR except it MIGHT say which kind of Jupiter I get for that period. In LA, all it does is highlight (with a Mercury add-on) Pluto's transit to Jupiter-Uranus, which I take as neutral-to-positive.

If I'm in KC already for the SLR, the Demi-SSR is mostly positive but not very "loud." There is an interesting reversal: Instead of transiting Pluto to natal Jupiter-Uranus, it has close foreground aspects of transiting Jupiter-Uranus to natal Pluto! It's one transit-to-transit foreground aspect is a Jupiter-Uranus conjunction (2°27') but with Jupiter-Uranus several degrees off MC (6-9°).

I think I won't concern myself with the Demi. It doesn't clarify anything, probably doesn't have a loud voice beyond the first ten days, and is neutral-to-good both locations.

Thanks, Steve.

[SteveS]

I hear you Jim. Jim, I have very little experience with Anlunars. Quickly scanned your Anlunars out to April 5 for possible “outstanding incidents”. The only possible Red Flag I saw was your mundo PV Jan 14 AnL featuring an angular partile Ur-Pl 90 with a rising Sun and 3 degree conjunction of Moon-Saturn. Could be some kind of revolutionary changes (Ur-Pl) within your company which could affect you in some way. But after this Jan 14 AnL I see mostly neutral to benefic AnLs to April 5.

[Jim Eshelman]

Thanks, Steve. - I'll also check the year of Anlunars and their Demis when I can get time looking specifically for when it brings the SSR Venus-Saturn opposition to angles. (That's the specific trigger I'm looking for, to see when I have to face off the partile-but-background Ve-Sa during the SSR year.)

[SteveS]

Indeed Jim. I think I noted till April and never noticed any of your anlunars bringing this Moon-Venus-Saturn background to the primary or secondary angles of the anlunars, which is good since we know you will have to go through t Saturn partile 180 your SSR Moon. But, I quickly scanned for these possible angular hits and might have missed a hit to an auxillary angle in an anlunar. If you don't have to deal with any angular hits of this Moon-Saturn in the anlunars---you should be ok. But, for sure, let us know if/how you may feel this background Venus-Saturn effect in your SSR.

[Jim Eshelman]

...we know you will have to go through t Saturn partile 180 your SSR Moon.

Saturn once (mid-February) and Jupiter once (end of June). Saturn spends the first third of the year going over the Venus-Saturn.

Also of interest are the times Pluto is crossing and hovering on SSR MC early February then August-September. - The Jupiter-Uranus conjunction in April is on SSR Uranus. Here's the graphic ephemeris of transits of outer planets to SSR planets and angles (90° aspects):

[Jim Eshelman]

On the Venus-Saturn opposition, though, I have been forgetting to mention (in this thread) that it occurs exactly on natal LOCAL angles. Local Asc is 5°14' Leo. SSR Saturn is 5°56' Aquarius, Venus 6°43' Aquarius. There seems no escaping the exact transit of Saturn to local Descendant.

Regarding the Anlunars:

Anlunar Jan 28: They aren't that close, but MC is 10°26' Leo and Asc 0°55' Scorpio. Transiting Saturn is 1° from IC. If the Anlunar were more powerful, this would be a dark fortnight, but I'm not sure it outright triggers the SSR Venus-Saturn aspect.

Anlunar Apr 19: Asc 6°21' Scorpio puts them both partile on angles (Asc is about 1' from their midpoint). Additionally, transiting Saturn (3°40' from IC) is the closest transiting planet.

If there is anything to Anlunars being legitimate triggers of less prominent SSR factors, I should definitely feel Venus-Saturn effects on and just after April 19.


Demi-Anlunar March 9: MC 5°00' Scorpio draws them out but with transiting Jupiter and Venus the strongest transiting factors.

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

On the Venus-Saturn opposition, though, I have been forgetting to mention (in this thread) that it occurs exactly on natal LOCAL angles. Local Asc is 5°14' Leo. SSR Saturn is 5°56' Aquarius, Venus 6°43' Aquarius. There seems no escaping the exact transit of Saturn to local Descendant.

Definitely will be a good test for Local Angles. Since I have remained very close to my birth location, I have no experience with other local angles vs the birth angles. What has been your personal and research experience with local angles involving outer planet transits Jim? Was there a major Saturn incident 29-30 years ago when Saturn transited your local Descendant, or 14-15 years ago when Saturn transited your local ASC? Maybe a close examinations of those Saturn times in your past to your local angles could offer clues. Do you suppose this partile SSR Venus-Saturn 180 with a wide orb SSR Moon could be only symbolizing Marion’s limited health condition, which I could see as putting a Saturn damper on any normal social life with you & Marion as you get into your new SSR? I am guessing with rehab it will take at least 3 months, maybe longer before her walking activities gets back to normal. Anyway, let us know how Marion comes out of her surgery with Doc’s comments.

Also as a reminder for your Natal Lunars with Bradley’s words:

Lunar returns, while more powerful in immediate effect, are subservient to the preceding solar return.

I guess would also apply to Anlunars as well. If you feel like your angular Mars-Pluto in 2023 SSR is a cautionary negative factor to look out for, I strongly feel the Red Flag April 6 SLR Mars-Saturn Paran would/could bring out any possible negative “subservient” symbolism in your new SSR. But, I still see Jupiter as being the main planetary theme for your 2023 SSR.

[Jim Eshelman]

What has been your personal and research experience with local angles involving outer planet transits Jim?

Just by transit? (Having nothing to do with return charts?) They're equal to birthplace angles in every respect.

Was there a major Saturn incident 29-30 years ago when Saturn transited your local Descendant, or 14-15 years ago when Saturn transited your local ASC? Maybe a close examinations of those Saturn times in your past to your local angles could offer clues.

I'm not as interested in concrete events as you are but, rather, one's experience of life and the universe regardless of whether it's interior or exterior (ultimately I don't see much difference between the two).

Thirty years ago was the most important spiritual climax (by training and discipline, not revelation) of my life, peaking on April 18, 1993. This wasn't at the exact Saturn transit, though - it was between the square to my Saturn and crossing my Descendant (local), close to the midpoint. That year was a gigantic year of significant changes and breakthroughs that still matter alongside several disappointments that barely mattered even at the time. (Pluto was crossing my local IC then, too, so it's complex.) Saturn crossed local Descendant in May, stayed close for months due to a station, crossed back in July and then the following January. It was a year of working hard, with some things gradually deteriorating (i.e., reaching their natural end) that I didn't see happening at the time. Overall, I think of it as part of a high wave, though not at all easy.

Half a Saturn cycle later, it started squaring local MC in 2007 and crossed local Asc in August-September 2008. (Single pass, never quite got back by retrogradation). In hindsight, work stands out as flourishing - I had been at O'Melveny two years and in my current position since early in the year, and those were good years. Interestingly (compared to the time described), certain things were deteriorating that I didn't see coming (ripening that December). On the relationship front, Marion and I were getting terribly close and decided we wanted to spend the rest of our lives together (we kept it under wraps and announced that part the next spring).

This, of course, had nothing to do with these planets being on angles of return charts. The real question in my mind is whether transits to natal angles (whether birthplace or locale) at the time of a return act like "transits" in the return chart. I think they probably do, but it's not as clear as other transits.

Do you suppose this partile SSR Venus-Saturn 180 with a wide orb SSR Moon could be only symbolizing Marion’s limited health condition, which I could see as putting a Saturn damper on any normal social life with you & Marion as you get into your new SSR?

I hope not, since that means her debility will last more than a year, until the SSR expires in October 2024. (In fact, part of my barely conscious concern, unspoken until now, is that something goes wrong that produces results that DO last a year or more. I don't think that's going to happen since our lunars seem to show us being back in the swing of things about January 1.)

Also as a reminder for your Natal Lunars with Bradley’s words:

Lunar returns, while more powerful in immediate effect, are subservient to the preceding solar return.

Right. Daily fluctuations in the stock market are rises and falls compared to the overall trend of the stock market. (Same thing.) - Not entirely encouraging since I have doubts about this SSR.

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

This, of course, had nothing to do with these planets being on angles of return charts. The real question in my mind is whether transits to natal angles (whether birthplace or locale) at the time of a return act like "transits" in the return chart. I think they probably do, but it's not as clear as other transits.

Then we both maybe can learn from our new SSRs together. You see a major Saturn transit to your local Natal DSC with your SSR, and I see a major Saturn transit to my birthplace IC with my next SSR. We will try to learn together.

I'm not as interested in concrete events as you are but, rather, one's experience of life and the universe regardless of whether it's interior or exterior (ultimately I don't see much difference between the two).

I hear you Jim.

I hope not, since that means her debility will last more than a year, until the SSR expires in October 2024.

But, can’t part of the symbolism in a SSR only last part of the solar year? Other than with Marion and her new injury problem how could you see the SSR Venus-Saturn-Moon symbolism manifesting in the context of your ordinary life circumstances?

Not entirely encouraging since I have doubts about this SSR.

You are the best to judge your SSR Jim. Fagan at one time put a-lot of faith in the Lunar Kinetic of the SSR. I think I remember you not having much faith in the Kinetic. I have very little experience studying the Kinetics since I know of no quick way for me scanning em for “outstanding incident” return charts like I can with Lunars & Anlunars with SF. So far in my life I can't recall isolating a Kinetic that was a wow for me? I can't recall any great examples from any of the other siderealists, but with my old mind---don't know for sure.

[Jim Eshelman]

Just to be clear, I'm not as worried about the angular Saturn by itself, as about the angular Venus-Saturn aspect specifically.

As to "can't it apply to just one part of the year," yes this would be expected of a NON-ANGULAR feature of the chart which only pops up when emphasizedm. If this aspect registers as non-angular, then the first quarter of the year draws most attention as Saturn transits the SSR Venus-Saturn (see the graphic Ephemeris above).

However, if this registers as an ANGULAR feature - as if it's angular in the SSR itself - then it applies to the entire year, more or less without interruption.

That's what I don't know yet: A occasional example has made it seem one can flip the wheels and see how planets splay on natal angles, but thst might be untrue. In any case, with my wife going into surgery in a couple of hours, the idea of a Year Chart having transiting Neptune partile conjunct natal Dsc and transiting Saturn partile conjunct natal local Dsc AND opposite Venus is not a pleasant idea.

Regarding the Kinetic Lunar, my opinion is the opposite - but of the natal progressed Moon, not SSR. The KLR is so good thst if I were to add ONE routine technique to the SSR and SLR, it would be the Kinetic Lunar Return.

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

Just to be clear, I'm not as worried about the angular Saturn by itself, as about the angular Venus-Saturn aspect specifically.

I now understand much better where you are coming from Jim, because at first I could not understand why that background Venus-Saturn 180 had you so concerned, but with that background Venus-Saturn partile 180 aspect falling on your local horizon I can now understand why you have more concerns. If this Venus-Saturn is symbolizing a “locked-in” angular effect for your new solar year, it has high % for separating you from someone close to you involving any kind of relationship. My 2021 SSR featured a SSR rising Venus in Paran with my Natal Saturn on SSR MC and that was the solar year I lost my best friend Brock. But we never know with certainty what an important SSR aspect brings to our life. As a possible clue, how would you interpret your SSR Moon being in the sign of Leo?

[Jim Eshelman]

As a possible clue, how would you interpret your SSR Moon being in the sign of Leo?

I haven't been able to confirm that SSR Moon's sign means anything. I've wanted it to (makes it more like "a new natal") but, if there is an affect, it is so subtle that it's not worth noting. I can always see the effect of progressed Moon's sign (sometimes pretty vividly, like the current pass through Virgo for two and a half years) but can't say, e.g., that my last year has been unusually Arian (for the SSR Moon in Aries).

An exception is for something like medical astrology: If this got a transiting affliction of the kind that showed a health problem, odds are better than even that it would be in the Leo part of the body. (There go MY ankles, right?)

Back to Venus-Saturn on local angles... For display purposes, flip the (local) natal and the SSR as if the next SSR were the natal chart etc. This display paints a very different kind of year. Is it legit? I don't know. If so, it's quite emotionally brutal (in a "loss of loved one" sense). The simplest justification would be that at least the SSR planets legitimately transit natal angles (or perhaps they don't). In any case, take a look at the chart that way and shudder a little. - I doubt this is so, but it's worth attention (and a chance to find out).

Code: Select all

Pl Longitude   Lat   Speed    RA    Decl    Azi     Alt     PVL    Ang G
                           Transiting Planets                           
Ve  1Sc52'48"  5S48 +29'45" 232°10' 24S54   7° 8' -80°46'  88°51' 100% I 
Pl  2Le 6' 8"  9N55 + 1'20" 152° 4' 22N 5  66°58' + 5°27' 354° 4' 100% E 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            Radical Planets                             
Sa  5Aq56' 3"  1S46 - 2'23" 332°47' 13S 7 253°56' + 0°14' 180°14' 100% D 
Ve  6Le43' 0"  1S36 +52'37" 152°18'  9N41  77° 1' - 1°50'   1°53'  99% A 
Ur 27Ar16'38"  0S19 - 1'55"  49° 3' 17N48 194°36' +73°17' 265°40'  95% M 
Mo 12Le12'42"  3N54 +11°52' 159°34' 12N49  70°17' - 5°45'   6° 7'  90% A 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Class 1 Aspects         Class 2 Aspects      
tVe sq tPl  0°13'100%   tVe sq rVe  3° 2' 75% M  
----------------------  tVe op rUr  3°11' 86% M  
tMo co rNe  2°32' 91% M tPl co rVe  4°37' 70%    
tVe sq rSa  1°24' 95% M tPl op rSa  3°50' 79%    
tPl sq rUr  1°36' 93% M  ----------------------  
----------------------  rMo co rVe  4°14' 75% M  
rVe op rSa  0°47' 99%   rMo op rSa  5°52' 53% M  
                        rSa sq rUr  4°34' 44% M

[SteveS]

I understand Jim, definitely a possible new/differnet way to interpret your 2023 SSR with Saturn-Venus on your local Natal angles.

[SteveS]

Jim wrote pertaining to outer planet transits to local angles vs birthplace angles:

They're equal to birthplace angles in every respect.

Jim, it most certainly appears to me that t Saturn on your local DSC main manifestation has to do with the serious injury to Marion’s angle/foot. Do you agree?

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim, it most certainly appears to me that t Saturn on your local DSC main manifestation has to do with the serious injury to Marion’s angle/foot. Do you agree?

It's certainly a singular feature. Let's look at the bigger picture of the transit (and we can't separate it ultimately from Saturn transiting my local WP, i.e., square local MC, and transiting natal Venus-Pluto).

Starting just with the transit to local Descendant: The transit first entered partile orb March 1 and will last leave partile orb December 4. During this time, yes, the largest external event has been Marion's injury. It's complicated by interweaving with other transits such as Pluto to natal Jupiter-Uranus and Neptune to natal Descendant, so this larger time period has been one of taking on and restructuring debt with an broad positive trend which, nonetheless required a lot of work, attention, and careful deciding.

Notice that the only EXACT transit was March 9. It doesn't make it all the way back. It re-enters partile orb for a second pass October 3 to December 4, with probably the most significant event being Saturn's November 3 station at 5°27' Aquarius. This will overlap her healing process quite closely (and this will likely be a time of extreme financial caution and temporarily taking on secondary debt, all Saturn stuff). What's most interesting to me is that it does NOT include her injury and surgery. From a classic treatment of transits, this would mean that it has nothing at all to do with her injury or surgery. However, my view is that transits that involve retrogradation (which means nearly all outer planet transits) work more or less uninterrupted from first partile to last partile, to effect some fundamental permanent change in us. (They can also be locked in longer by angularity in return charts.)

Let's move on to Saturn's transit of local Westpoint (i.e., square local MC): This also was one pass, beginning January 30 and ending February 16. This went really fast and clearly marked a separate set of processes (a "separate time"). Similarly, Saturn's transit to natal Venus-Pluto was Feb 1-19, which went by really fast.

I don't think we can separate this Saturn transit to local Descendant from Neptune's transit to natal Ascendant. Ignoring the other tightly packed natal angles in the same space, Neptune's first-to-last partile pass of natal Descendant is April 20, 2023 to February 15, 2025 - almost two years. That process has barely begun (though it seems like it's been around forever, mostly because it's hard to separate from Neptune's transit of natal Moon).

We can, therefore, isolate a time of double malefic pile-up on Descendant: With Neptune to natal Dsc being 4/20/23-2/15/25, and Saturn to local Dsc being 3/1/23-12/4/23, we have the period April 20 to December 4, 2023 when they are both in-process. The three biggest things in this period have been Marion's injury, surgery, and pending recovery; our large, high-impact moves on restructuring finances; and my work on CSA. Of these, the last doesn't seem related to these transits, the first seems totally related to these transits, and the middle one seems partly related.

[SteveS]

Jim, I have always known outer planet transits to our Natal Angels are very important for timing important new trends in our lives. I think I am now beginning to understand your life situations much better. Because you are experiencing two outer planet transits to your Natal Angles, Saturn (local); Neptune (birthplace) mixed with your Natal Moon, it’s like taking a heavy dose of Saturn & Neptune symbolism at the same time, definitely not a pleasant experience. Your situation is the first chart(s) I have ever seen incurring two malefic outer planet transits of Saturn & Neptune to local & natal angles. Thanks for your explanation---I understand your symbolic situations better now. I sure do hope Jupiter on your 2023 SSR Asc offers you probably some much needed benefic relief.

[Jim Eshelman]

I'm going to start a new "clean" thread for my new SSR and will lock this one - but I'll leave it here in things discussed become an issue as the year goes on. Thanks to all who responded.