Chimera Orchestra’s Kaleidoscope of Kitsch

[Chimera Orchestra]

Greetings and A Merry Hallow’s Eve!

Just wanted to thank everyone for running a lively forum on a fascinating subject. It’s a rare thing to see such spirited camaraderie and I salute you for it.

I must say: Sidereal is quite a relief from Placidus, which insists I share an ascendant with Abe Lincoln and the notorious Anti-Christ. Can you imagine wondering if you look like a smash up between ol’ “hatchet face” and the devil incarnate from Hell Comes to Frogtown XIII: Toadwart Boogaloo? Thanks to Sidereal Astrology, I will no longer obsess over my ghastly resemblance to Batsquatch Spindleshanks.

A rundown of my main hobby horses, in no particular order:

• CINEMA: Movie maniac since age 13. Started with stacks of library books, ended with infinite watchlists. Range: Lifetime flicks to Criterion classics.

• CRIME: Took a backseat to cinema, although I did read the “Tales of Murder & Mayhem” section from Reader’s Digest since age 8. Kept tabs over the decades via documentaries, magazine subscriptions, and international newspapers. Range: Small town blotters to genocide movies. Saw/read 200+ holocaust survivor stories. Didn’t seriously tackle this topic until a few years before the pandemic, when I took a strange turn into astrology, airplane disasters, and deadly kitchen gadgets.

• ASTROLOGY: I’m in that honeymoon stage — or that moment when a kid first enters a candy shop and can’t decide whether to go wild over the salt water taffy or that Everlasting Gobstopper. What can you do when everything’s so scrumptious? Enthralled by midpoints and harmonics. Vedic: Too Grand Guignol for me. Can’t get on board with traditional astrology yet; I’d like more data besides a smattering of painstakingly hand-drawn charts of royal fuddy duds.

• KITSCH: Jell-O recipes stuffed with olives and frankfurters. Liberace’s cape exploding with hot pink turkey feathers. Anything that belongs in The Encyclopedia of Bad Taste.

• WEAKNESSES: Sports (every time I tune in to watch the Super Bowl commercials, the blasted game won’t stop playing), Science, and Mathematics. I’ll throw in Arts because I can’t draw without an AI program, or what I’d call Andy Warholing for the artistically disinclined.

At this point I should confess to an excessive amount of shyness, taking my hermitude to absurd lengths. From junior high on, I would burn a few hours in the library or dash past several neighborhoods to guarantee an empty seat on the bus. In college I would walk to the other side of my campus, then up three flights, to dodge restrooms scorched with cigarette butts. And that was the height of my bonhomie.

To my delight, my closest direct midpoints describe this behavior (courtesy of Reinhold Ebertin’s Combination of Stellar Influences):

• SA opposite MO/AC (0°17): “Inhibitions in contact with other persons, the state of being depressed in the presence of others. - Union with others through joint or common suffering, separation from relations or from the female sex.”

• ME opposite MO/SA (0°33): “Thinking of separation, the state of feeling sad, saying goodbye.”

• MO opposite PL/NN (0°37): “The feeling of emotional inhibition in the presence of other people, the inability to develop one’s inner expression of soul or feeling.”

• MC conjunct SA/AS (0°39): “Difficult growth of individual expression, the inclination to feel depressed, oppressed, inhibited, frustrated or slighted by others. Suffering from other people’s actions, the gaining of experience. - Emotional suffering through separation, the misfortune to be hindered in the fulfillment of one’s objectives in life.”

Dug up a midpoint structure after eyeballing a thread on Sibel Deniz Edmonds: SU/MO = JU/SA

One of Ebertin’s probable manifestations of JU/SA: “The patient realisation of one’s objectives in seclusion… happy feelings caused through separation, happiness in seclusion.”

Laughs and drapes tinsel over my Fortress of Solitude.

While I’m bedazzling another crystal deck on the frozen tundra, I’d like to ask three questions:

1) In Ptolemaic terms, although my Venus and Mercury fall into unaspected territory, I suspect they’re playing an outsized influence in my mundoscope. Alas, I cannot run Mike’s TMSA app due to my ancient Mac, which is years away from keeling over. Could anyone please kindly run the calculations for me?

BIRTH INFO: 1979 January 4, 9:38 AM HST, 21N18 157W51 (Birth Certificate)
CURRENT RESIDENCE: Sameish; 20+ minute drive away

2) Could my Novien account for hidden Mercury-Venus aspects? I squinted at the calculations table on page 173 of Cyril Fagan’s Astrological Origins, but I must’ve botched* the numbers along the way:

NOVIEN VENUS: 29°42’ Scorpio
SIDEREAL MERCURY: 29°46’ Scorpio
NOVIEN MARS: 28°48’ Aquarius

NOVIEN MERCURY: 27°54’ Cancer
SIDEREAL MAKEMAKE: 29°13’ Cancer
SIDEREAL URANUS: 25°25’ Libra
NOVIEN SATURN: 24°18’ Capricorn
NOVIEN SUN: 24°45’ Capricorn
SIDEREAL AS: 28°04’ Capricorn

*Somehow both my Novien AS and MC add up to 12°36’ Capricorn. Ha, talk about a mathematical prank.

3) Mundo midpoints to major angles: Anything beastly over there?

[Jim Eshelman]

Welcome to Solunars!

1) In Ptolemaic terms, although my Venus and Mercury fall into unaspected territory, I suspect they’re playing an outsized influence in my mundoscope. Alas, I cannot run Mike’s TMSA app due to my ancient Mac, which is years away from keeling over. Could anyone please kindly run the calculations for me?

Sure, here are the essential elements of your chart from TMSA.

Code: Select all

Pl Longitude   Lat   Speed    RA    Decl    Azi     Alt     PVL    Ang G
Mo 11Pi15'16"  1S23 +13°41'   5°47'  1N 0  74°30' -32° 9'  33° 7'  36%   
Su 19Sg24'41"  0N 0 + 1° 1' 285° 3' 22S43 132°45' +28° 9' 323°56'   3%   
Me 29Sc46' 9"  0N34 + 1°22' 263°44' 22S45 151°24' +40°27' 299°19'  43%   
Ve  3Sc18'30"  3N47 +54' 1" 236°23' 15S58 186°28' +52°31' 265° 4'  93% M 
Ma 23Sg12'13"  0S57 +46'21" 289°16' 23S13 130°20' +24°53' 328°41'   0%   
Ju 12Cn 7'24"  0N36 - 6'55" 129° 7' 19N13 296° 8' -11°35' 167° 9'  61%   
Sa 19Le22'54"  1N52 - 1'13" 165°50'  8N 5 272° 9' +17°11' 197°12'  63%   
Ur 25Li25' 9"  0N20 + 2'34" 227°31' 17S23 199° 8' +49°17' 254°15'  85% Z 
Ne 24Sc31'14"  1N23 + 2' 6" 258° 8' 21S36 157° 0' +43°45' 292°12'  55%   
Pl 24Vi41'29" 17N 5 + 0'36" 204° 7'  8N19 255°13' +52°40' 233°36'   3%   
------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Class 1 Aspects         Class 2 Aspects         Class 3 Aspects     
Mo tr Ju  0°52' 99%      Mo sq Me  3°49' 61% M     Su sx Ur  6° 0' 34%  
Mo oc Ur  0°50' 92%      Me co Ne  5°15' 71%       Me oc Ju  2°39' 21%  
Su oc Ve  1° 6' 85%      Ma tr Sa  3°49' 72%       Me sx Pl  5° 5' 52%  
Su co Ma  3°48' 84%      Sa sq Ne  5° 0' 34% M     Ve co Ur  7°53' 36%  
Su tr Sa  0° 2'100%                                Ju oc Ne  2°36' 23%  
Su sq Pl  0°20'100% M                              Sa sx Ur  6° 2' 33%  
Ma sx Ur  2°13' 91%                                                     
Ma sq Pl  1°29' 96%                                                     
Ju sq Ur  2°54' 77% M                                                   
Ne sx Pl  0°10'100%                                                     
------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              Cosmic State                              
Mo Pi    | tr Ju  0°52'    oc Ur  0°50'    sq Me  3°49'M   
Su Sg  B | tr Sa  0° 2'    sq Pl  0°20'M   oc Ve  1° 6'    co Ma  3°48'    
         | sx Ur  6° 0'    
Me Sc    | Mo Pi- Su Sg-
         | co Ne  5°15'    sq Mo  3°49'M   sx Pl  5° 5'    oc Ju  2°39'    
Ve Sc- F | Mo Pi+
         | oc Su  1° 6'    co Ur  7°53'    
Ma Sg  B | sq Pl  1°29'    sx Ur  2°13'    co Su  3°48'    tr Sa  3°49'    
Ju Cn+   | Su Sg+
         | tr Mo  0°52'    sq Ur  2°54'M   oc Ne  2°36'    oc Me  2°39'    
Sa Le    | tr Su  0° 2'    tr Ma  3°49'    sq Ne  5° 0'M   sx Ur  6° 2'    
Ur Li  F | oc Mo  0°50'    sx Ma  2°13'    sq Ju  2°54'M   co Ve  7°53'    
         | sx Su  6° 0'    sx Sa  6° 2'    
Ne Sc    | Mo Pi+
         | sx Pl  0°10'    co Me  5°15'    sq Sa  5° 0'M   oc Ju  2°36'    
Pl Vi  B | sx Ne  0°10'    sq Su  0°20'M   sq Ma  1°29'    sx Me  5° 5'

You do not have a strong Mercury side - pretty much the opposite, since your Sagittarius-Pisces luminaries are both opposite Mercury constellations; and Mercury's strongest aspect is a moderate conjunction with Neptune. However, Mercury does have a moderate mundane square to Moon, which brings out some of those traits.

Venus OTOH is quite strong. It's your strongest planet by angularity (about 5° off MC) and gets an extra kick from your Moon being in Pisces.

I would rank the fundamental needs corresponding to the planets as follows. This isn't the same as saying planet strength but, rather, the specific high energy drive of each respective need. Pluto needs (for authenticity and solitude) top the list because of your 0°20' Sun-Pluto mundane square.

100% - Pluto
93% - Venus
90% - Jupiter Neptune
85% - Uranus
84% - Mars
63% - Saturn
61% - Mercury
36% - Moon
3% - Sun

2) Could my Novien account for hidden Mercury-Venus aspects?

You mean Novien Venus conjunct natal Mercury within about 0°01'? It could indeed. We don't have a strong handle on the strength of these Novien factors, but they seem valid.

I'm curious, though, what about yourself you think might mean you have a Mercury-Venus aspect. Much of what would normally show from that is already in the foreground Venus, and especially a foreground Venus for a Sagittarius-Pisces.

3) Mundo midpoints to major angles: Anything beastly over there?

You have Moon/Mars 0°54' from angles (Asc) in the Mundoscope. We haven't fully vetted these in natal charts (and I tend to be example from examples I've seen), but they work really brilliantly in the ingress charts, so... one never knows.

[Chimera Orchestra]

Hello Jim! Thanks for the warm welcome and your stellar interpretation skills

You do not have a strong Mercury side - pretty much the opposite, since your Sagittarius-Pisces luminaries are both opposite Mercury constellations; and Mercury's strongest aspect is a moderate conjunction with Neptune. However, Mercury does have a moderate mundane square to Moon, which brings out some of those traits.

I'm used to the doofiness of a Sagittarius Mercury from my Placidus days. Not a shocker that my Mercury's off snoozing in the meadows somewhere

Venus OTOH is quite strong. It's your strongest planet by angularity (about 5° off MC) and gets an extra kick from your Moon being in Pisces.

Interesting! Never thought a Piscean Moon could boost my demented Venus.

I would rank the fundamental needs corresponding to the planets as follows. This isn't the same as saying planet strength but, rather, the specific high energy drive of each respective need. Pluto needs (for authenticity and solitude) top the list because of your 0°20' Sun-Pluto mundane square.

100% - Pluto
93% - Venus
90% - Jupiter Neptune
85% - Uranus
84% - Mars
63% - Saturn
61% - Mercury
36% - Moon
3% - Sun

Egads, I wasn't expecting Pluto to top the list. I do find it enormously funny since it makes perfect sense.

You mean Novien Venus conjunct natal Mercury within about 0°01'? It could indeed. We don't have a strong handle on the strength of these Novien factors, but they seem valid.

I'm curious, though, what about yourself you think might mean you have a Mercury-Venus aspect. Much of what would normally show from that is already in the foreground Venus, and especially a foreground Venus for a Sagittarius-Pisces.

I thought these descriptions applied to me:

• "Delights in learning (learns easily)." - I don't mind doctor visits because that means I get to clean out the waiting room magazines. I'll read anything that's there: Scientific American, National Geographic, New Yorker, Esquire, Sports Illustrated, Martha Stewart Living, etc. I did flunk out of my sophomore year because I focused too much on school work. Once I switched to another high school, and goofed around with my hobbies, I Dean's Listed my way into a full scholarship, then graduated college in three years with a double major. Then I chucked my hobbies in grad school and lost my scholarship

• "Retains a playful, childlike sense, a charm of immaturity." - I rank Chaucer higher than Shakespeare because he cranks out more elaborate fart jokes.

But you're right, the part about "Singers (sometimes with angelic voices)" knocks me out of Mercury-Venus contention. Since I sound like a bullfrog croaking on a bog marsh, I will never win American Idol with my expert belching.

You have Moon/Mars 0°54' from angles (Asc) in the Mundoscope. We haven't fully vetted these in natal charts (and I tend to be example from examples I've seen), but they work really brilliantly in the ingress charts, so... one never knows.

Thanks! I'll look at that midpoint more carefully tomorrow. It's time to dream of sweeping the Tuvan throat singing contest.

[Jim Eshelman]

Pisces is ruled by Neptune, with Venus exalted ; so when we think of Pisces we think primarily of Neptune and Venus traits being prominent.

[Chimera Orchestra]

Pisces is ruled by Neptune, with Venus exalted ; so when we think of Pisces we think primarily of Neptune and Venus traits being prominent.

Ah, that makes sense! Aside from my Novien Neptune squaring my natal Moon, I couldn’t find a solid explanation for my lifelong love of movies.

I do adore art in all forms. Found objects, the “Monkey Jesus” fresco (aka Ecce Homo), the Wilhelm scream that pops up in over 400 movies — they all belong in a museum. The kind of fluff to inspire an opera.

You have Moon/Mars 0°54' from angles (Asc) in the Mundoscope. We haven't fully vetted these in natal charts (and I tend to be example from examples I've seen), but they work really brilliantly in the ingress charts, so... one never knows.

Back to the mundo MO/MA = ASC: “The establishment of one’s rights or privileges within the family, the taking over of leadership. The contact with women, with the wife.”

Yes, I’m usually surrounded by women who hail from the Xena: Warrior Princess tribe or a “woman imbued with a fighting spirit.” They’re different levels of fierce, jockeying for “leadership” positions within their own families. They’re “hard-working or energetic,” juggling multiple jobs. With my “fluctuating energy,” I seem like a slacker in comparison.

“The tendency to become involved in quarrels”: Ever see a Barbara Stanwyck movie where she doesn't blow the roof off? Sometimes I will wake up to the sound of a Ball of Fire exploding. Or dash back home when a neighbor roars while thrashing a crate of empty beer bottles. Or hear, through thin walls, two screaming babies, both girls, within the last ten years. The last one grew up and refused to stop yowling about her family.

“rebellion against restriction and compulsion, irritability”: I will admit to getting cranky if I can't duck out of crowds fast enough. I'm more polite about it and will wait until I'm back home to flip out. Even if it takes a week and an airplane ride thousands of miles away. That’s how I rebel against the “restriction” of the dreaded line queue.

“strong excitability”: Sure, usually about art.

“the demonstration of intolerance”: Can’t stand narcissists. Ironically, getting “involved in quarrels” is the worst way to quash them. In my brasher days, I would lash out with my “sharp tongue”; once I realized they thrived on drama, I resorted to sneakier, "grey rocking" schemes.

[Jim Eshelman]

LOL, I recently wrote pieces on the archetypal backdrop of the signs and how these emerged as different symbols in different lands. From the above, you probably would enjoy reading the Pisces section: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7814#p55514 (You might be interested in the Sagittarius section, too, but the Pisces is what immediately came to mind.)

And, of course, there is the more practical Moon in Pisces interpretation section: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=34#p153

[Chimera Orchestra]

LOL, I recently wrote pieces on the archetypal backdrop of the signs and how these emerged as different symbols in different lands. From the above, you probably would enjoy reading the Pisces section: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7814#p55514 (You might be interested in the Sagittarius section, too, but the Pisces is what immediately came to mind.)

And, of course, there is the more practical Moon in Pisces interpretation section: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=34#p153

Great stuff! Still working through the other signs, but ugh, my spoke luminaries keep distracting me. Seeing similarities between Sagittarius and Pisces:

A climbing, soaring arrow unleashed from a strong bow expresses Sagittarius’ higher and higher theme, the root metaphor underlying most Sagittarian traits including practical and social ambition, material and spiritual aspiration, aviation, and self-betterment.

Pisces resembles Venus and Neptune and is unlike Mercury. It is a Spoke constellation in the Enigma triplicity, with symbols of the ocean, binding, turbulent deeps, and serene highs.

I've flown off that Icarus rollcoaster a number of times. Can't go back up until you've swooped all the way down.

Warring reminds us that The Arrow signifies literal weaponry. Sagittarius luminaries often indicate a fondness for weapons (especially knives and other tools that pierce or cut), whether for military commanders, soldiers, surgeons, sadists, murderers, or simple recreational hunters.

A striking example of what astrologers saw is given in the summary of Pisces luminaries by Manilius, who, besides citing fishing and seafaring skills, wrote:

Naval warfare too is of their gift, battles afloat, and blood-stained waves at sea.

Hmm, that describes my environment, more than anything: I live on an island with a maritime center, 11 military bases, and the Pearl Harbor memorial. I don't swim and my knife skills involve accidentally dropping a blade on my left hand recently. I've watched a crazy amount of war movies, however. (I prefer the Sergeant York / Life and Death of Colonel Blimp end of the scale - not exactly the kind of movie that would satisfy a medieval barber surgeon.)

Then again, the list of "military commanders, soldiers, surgeons, sadists, murderers, or simple recreational hunters" describes the characters in my current Amazon watchlist (minus the more cheerful titles): Colonel Redl, Peterloo, Argentina 1985, Return from the Ashes, 15 Minutes of War, The Baader Meinhof Komplex, Hamlet, Henry V, Columbo and Medium TV series (to fulfill that "surgeons" and "simple recreational hunters" requirement).

Incidentally, the last time I was ambitious, I applied to the U.S. Naval Academy right after graduating from college. Interview went great, and at the end of the appointment I was edging towards signing up... Until, for some reason, I asked the recruiter about the exercise routine. "Oh, it's just light jogging," he said. "Nothing too strenuous."

Excuse me? I thought to myself. Didn't this guy see AN OFFICER AND A GENTLEMAN (1982)? I'd only caught snippets here and there over the years, but every time I tuned into TBS or TNT, I'd catch these scenes: a panic attack in a pressure chamber; climbing up a sky-high wall with a rope; and Richard Gere scrambling through a barbed wire obstacle course.

That didn't look like "light jogging" to me!

Turned it down flat.