How I use the Novien - current thought

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim, since in the last few weeks I started paying more attention to Fagan/Bradley Novien Chart, what are your specific methods for using the Novien Chart? Have you already posted these methods in another thread?

First, I don't routinely look at the Novien for every chart, but that's at least partly because it's a small pain to calculate it digitally. This will probably change at least a little (maybe a lot) when TMSA has Noviens available.

Janus calculates the Novien, which I can tap on the one computer where Janus is installed (but I usually don't because Janus is so slow to load). It only takes another half-minute to trick Solar Fire into producing, so time isn't the issue. Ultimately, I don't look at it often because the natal chart is so complete and full on its own that I rarely need anything else. Nonetheless, for charts where I want to dig a little deeper, I'll check the Novien. Additionally, I think the Novien encodes important mathematical patterns that may be fundamental to other things on which we rely, so I feel I need to keep paying attention to it just to keep these matters floating into my brain.

Here is what I check (and don't) when I look at a person's Novien as an adjunct to the natal:

• I draw the chart as Fagan did, equal house from Moon. This is mostly a display option, but also keeps my attention on the fact that the Novien is primarily a lunar chart, showing a specifically lunar level of the psyche.
• I do not include angles, partly on the theory that angles are wrong to put in any sort of harmonic chart, and partly from experience that they just don't work. (For example, I'm clearly not fundamentally a Sun-Venus on Descendant and Neptune on Midheaven person, but that's what adding the angles would describe. I've seen a lot of failed, wrong descriptions from adding angles.)
• I use conjunctions, oppositions, and squares only. These probably work at both Class 1 and Class 2 orbs (at least out to Fagan's "pentade" 5° orb), but, as you would expect, I focus on Class 1 orbs, i.e., out to 3°. (This is partly because stronger aspects are going to be more obvious, and partly because, by the time I consult a Novien, I already have so many aspects flinging around that I don't need a new large pile of them. But somewhat wider ones, including all Class 2 orbs, probably are effective though weaker.)
• Controversially, I no longer consider signs valid in Noviens. This, of course, was something that got Fagan most excited, but I have to disagree (at least, my current thoughts). I don't think people really have "a second Moon sign." (Dropping this detail is what allowed me to make the clean break from Navamsa to Novien. It looked like Novien planet positions were most accurate, but there were too many cases where the Novien's Moon sign made no sense.)
• First thing I do is look at the Novien by itself, seeing the conjunctions, oppositions, and squares. (In my case, this repeats my close natal Venus-Pluto square and Jupiter-Uranus conjunction then adds the important 0°27' Moon-Mercury square. With wider orbs, I get Sun-Pluto square, Venus-Neptune square, and a wide Neptune-Pluto opposition. In your case, Steve, you get Mercury opposite Pluto 33' and conjunct Mars, Mars conjunct Jupiter, and Mars opposite Pluto, with wider orbs adding Moon-Neptune, Mercury-Jupiter, and Jupiter-Pluto.)
• Like Fagan, I then put the nativity around the Novien. It's easiest to do this as a 90° dial because I'm looking for close (Class 1) conjunctions, oppositions, and squares between Novien and natal.
• I've experimented with "Novien on natal" vs. "natal on Novien" (i.e., which is the outer ring, acting more like a transit to the inner ring). I have found that most consistently treating the natal like it's a set of transits to the Novien is pretty descriptive, while treating the Novien like transits to the natal is less convincing. Since natal modifies Novien, the Novien is the deeper, more fundamental layer and the regular nativity is a more sophisticated and later layer we "build" atop it. This is consistent with the idea that the Novien is a lunar chart, showing a foundation layer of the psyche atop which we build our more sophisticated character. (It's not just subconsciousness, but it's something similar to the layer of subconsciousness.)
• In my own natal-Novien aspects, the most obvious aspects are natal Jupiter-Uranus to Novien Moon-Mercury AND natal Moon square Novien Jupiter-Uranus. (Moon to Jupiter-Uranus goes both ways.) Also, natal Mercury opposes Novien Mars.
• In your natal-Novien aspects, Steve, the most obvious thing is that your natal Jupiter-Ascendant falls tightly atop your Novien Mars-Jupiter, interacting (with larger orbs) with your exact Novien Mercury-Pluto opposition. There is also the almost partile natal Venus square Novien Saturn. Also, Novien Moon is opposed by your natal Mercury-Neptune (almost exactly at their midpoint).
• In summary: First, close major hard aspects within the Novien. Second, the same aspects from the natal to the Novien. - That's my full method in a nutshell.

A few other points worth making:

• Transits to Noviens probably are valid, at least in a limited way. All I've tested are transits to my Novien Moon. These are effective but I don't have an opinion yet on how powerful or important they are. I was going to start watching transits to my Novien Sun this month, but I don't have any.
• NOTE 2/16/24: I have since confirmed that transits to Sun also work. Possibly transits to all Novien positions work. None of them are very strong, though. I believe the transits are not all that important themselves but the fact that they work at all is important for confirming the Novien in contrast to the Navamsa. (Navamsa transits fail, with a few examples of them being quite wrong.)
• Hindu astrologers treat the Navamsa primarily as a marriage chart, though many of them also will read it more widely as a second nativity. I think Fagan exactly nailed what this is really all about: It's not a marriage chart in the sense of contracts or practical-legal details but, rather, is all about sex. The lunar layer of the psyche is primarily the instinctual layer, connected foremost to sex and reproduction. This, in turn, provides the baseline or foundation on top of which we build the rest of the mature psyche.
• In theory, this lunar layer of the psyche would also pertain to other instinctual matters such as survival and the way subconsciousness manages our health. I haven't been able to confirm that the Novien is a health chart, nor is that part of its tradition, but I mention this. [NOTE 2/16/24: See the other thread in this forum on the Novien and health indicators.]
• This also raises the question of whether the Novien shows distinctly infantile behavior. I don't think it usually does (in the way that phrase is intended, i.e., immature or even pathological behavior). It seems that what the Novien shows retains its innocence and yet also can mature. However, afflictions, especially between natal and Novien, can show where this innocence gets wounded. (For example, look at how Ian Brady's remarkable Novien not only has a tight Moon-Saturn-Pluto configuration, but has natal Sun right atop it, making it a core feature of his maturing character.)
• The other enormously important detail of the Novien is in synastry, for which I'll start a separate post below.

[Jim Eshelman]

Simply put, the Novien is of enormous importance in synastry, with particular emphasis on Novien-to-natal cross aspects. It has a few quirks.

• One person 's Novien planets closely conjunct, opposite, or square another person's natal planets will show in their relationship as if these were natal-to-natal aspects.
• A comparison of my Novien Moon, Sun, Venus, and Mars to the nativities of women in my sexual and relationship history shows an enormous number of close, appropriate contacts. The same doesn't happen with Navamsa positions (one of the stronger pieces of evidence that flipped me to the Novien).
• I'm not sure if this applies to other kinds of relationship. It's possible this is only relevant where sexual instincts are involved (even if it's not an overtly sexual relationship). I may have never been interested enough to set up two Noviens and cross-compare for other types of relationships, though there are some good examples in the synastry examples sub-forum where this could be tested.
• Strangely, Novien-to-Novien aspects seem ineffective. I would not have expected this - would have thought quite the opposite in theory. But I've seen several misfires of Novien-to-Novien interchanges that are clear misfires and, offhand, haven't seen any examples where there is a "must have" aspect of this type. This opinion could change in the future, of course, but at present I think I'd have been seriously misled if I relied on Novien-to-Novien interchanges.
• One contradiction to that involves signs, not aspects. Just as, with natal Moon in Aquarius, most women in my sexual history have Leo or Aquarius Moon, I also note that, with Novien Moon in Libra, most women in my sexual history have Libra or Aries Novien Moons. I find this fascinating but otherwise don't know what to make of it.

Just to give one example - my chart compared to my wife's chart, Novien-to-natal:

• My Novien Venus is 16°55' Scorpio. Her natal Moon is 15°59' Leo, Sun 14°01' Taurus (add Pluto).
• My Novien Mars is 20°18' Aries. Her natal Venus is 19°28' Aries (add Neptune).
• My natal Sun is 22°28' Virgo. Her Novien Moon is 23°51' Sagittarius.
• Her Novien Sun-Mars conjunction is a few degrees from my natal Asc.

[Jim Eshelman]

Fagan used another tactic with Noviens that some examples suggest works really well, even though in theory it seems it wouldn't work. I'm keeping a curious, open mind about what follows even though it's the kind of thing that generally makes me suspicious.

First, the non-controversial part: Since the Novien is drawn with Moon on 1st cusp (in the Ascendant-like spot) and equal house from there, what LOOK like angles are the conjunction, squares, and opposition to Moon. Of course planets in those locations are important. In Fagan's writings on the Novien, he tended to refer to such planets as "angular in the Novien" and the analogy became popular among Siderealists using the Novien.

However - here is the controversial part - Fagan treated them like actual angles including corresponding house symbolism. For existence, planets 90° behind Moon look like they're on the Midheaven, planets 90° ahead of Moon look like they're on the IC, etc., and Fagan interpreted them this way.

For example, in his interpretation of Jackie Kennedy's Novien viewtopic.php?f=61&t=142#p43907
he referred to natal Venus and Jupiter near the "upper" (dexter) square to Moon as "straddling the Midheaven" - even though it's not really Midheaven, it's a square to Moon - then he interpreted this in a traditional Midheaven way. He then interpreted Moon, Mars, Sun, and Neptune (approximately conjunct Moon and opposite Moon) as across the "horizon" giving it 7th house symbolism to describe the violent outcome for her first husband.

Do these positions actually have these distinguished angle-like meanings? The Hindus would consider they do because houses from Moon's placements are part of their system. We, however, would not usually consider that. Is my Novien Moon-Mercury square also "Mercury on the 10th cusp/MC" and, even more, Mercury conjoined by natal Jupiter-Uranus "on the MC of the Novien," describing my career? (It would be accurate.) Or is it just a Moon-Mercury square? Does Steve have natal Mercury-Neptune "on his Novien Descendant" referring to his marriage, or does he just have a Moon-Mercury-Neptune configuration? Does Joe Biden have "Jupiter on the Novien MC" or just Novien Moon square his Jupiter?

It's something I'm watching and hoping I find is not real... but I felt I should mention it.

[SteveS]

Thanks Jim, this helps me alot.

[mikestar13]

The way I have conceptualized it, the Novien doesn't have angles and angularity is not a relevant concern. Fagan just had a picturesque way of illustrating that Moon aspects are particularly significant in noviens and can color the whole chart as well as lunar matters (Rather similar to Moon aspects in ingress charts). Fagan's concept of the Novien as an aspect vernier is correct, and he was incorrect in asserting the sign position of the Novien Moon is important in and of itself. That was a very much wish it were true situation, as if the Novien (and Novien of Novien) Moon signs were discernible and meaningful, it would be a real aid to rectification.

[Jim Eshelman]

Essentially the same as my view... just keeping some other options open that experience hasn't clearly foreclosed.

The other thing is that, unlike "harmonics charts for the sake of showing aspects," the Novien positions seem objective in the sense that they can interact with other layers of planets such as one's natal, another's natal, and transits. This gives a bigger view of the "aspect vernier" idea than one would have otherwise.

Over the years, I've been a little puzzled in why Fagan was so excited (and so quickly) with Novien Moon sign placements. He came up with some good examples (and some weak examples) but one usually starts with one's own chart. His Novien Moon was in Cancer, one of the last signs I think he would have thought significant for himself. (It does put Moon at 15° Cancer specifically, in theory the most exalted degree of the zodiac, but still - it's in Cancer. Fagan didn't match Fagan's description of a Cancer Moon.) OTOH his Novien aspects are stunning for someone who led a revolution in astrology.

[Lyse]

Over the years, I've been a little puzzled in why Fagan was so excited (and so quickly) with Novien Moon sign placements. He came up with some good examples (and some weak examples) but one usually starts with one's own chart.

Not that long ago, I noticed that my Novien Moon is 15° Virgo in the exalted degree of Mercury. That degree does reflect my all-consuming emotional need to gather and disseminate information of every type, and in whatever manner available.

If I were to objectively analyze my birth chart, with that deeply background Mercury, I doubt that I’d consider that as a defining feature of someone’s life. My natal Mercury in Gemini is octile Moon, 1°44’, but that aspect doesn’t seem important enough to explain this drive for knowledge. There are other features in the Novien that really speak to me but the Novien Moon in that degree probably captures it and other aspects seem to support my quest to get what I need.

However, I definitely relate to being a Leo Moon, so the Novien Moon position in Virgo doesn’t work.

That’s the way I see it but maybe there are indicators in my natal that I’ve missed which explain this.

[Jim Eshelman]

This is exactly the kind of ambiguity I see in the best cases (and less credible connections in the rest). - There is something I haven't figured out the best way to articulate. I have several examples where - if you leave out the planetary themes of a sign especially as they define character - the Novien Moon seems to fit really well. For example, my wife is not at all Sagittarian (Jupiter is her weakest planet and it's evident) except in those ways that Sagittarius overlaps her Leo Moon. HOWEVER, while the character description is a miss, a primary characteristic of her life has frequent international travel since nearly infancy and a deep love of travel that goes beyond her Moon-Pluto need to "get away."

Or, with Novien Moon in Libra, I'm not a Libra character at all. (If I were, I might never have switched to the Sidereal zodiac, leaving a Libra Sun behind for a Virgo Sun. Yet my most successful decades in life have been time spent in the practice of (or supporting those who practice) the law.

It's as if you the sign fits based on its archetypal imagery if you ignore any of its planetary characteristics! (Or something like that.)

I have a small collection of examples where the best clue that the Novien Moon sign fits at all is that it seems to be a basic part of one's shadow - something not only quite UNLIKE the person but that they are almost offended at the idea that someone could mistake them for it. (Quite a few examples like that.)

Still working on it, obviously.

[Jim Eshelman]

And no, I don't see anything that makes Mercury a big deal in your natal horoscope. A Class 2 hard aspect to Moon is a good start, but not quite so much. I might think what you do is a very Cancerian investment in complex systems, mystery, and decoding tangles - that would fit. But you describe it so much in terms of how Mercury usually fits.

[Lyse]

This is exactly the kind of ambiguity I see in the best cases (and less credible connections in the rest). - There is something I haven't figured out the best way to articulate. I have several examples where - if you leave out the planetary themes of a sign especially as they define character - the Novien Moon seems to fit really well.

Thanks, Jim

It’s difficult to explain but it was right, for me, and it brought the entire Novien together. I don’t have many other examples to go by, my husband’s Novien Moon is also in Virgo but his natal Sun is as well. He’s a data driven person, generally, so maybe not the best example.

[Jim Eshelman]

There is still so much work we have to do on the Novien before any real sense of IF or HOW to use it are sorted out.

I haven't yet written the Novien chapter of The Big Book, but it likely will take the position that this was Fagan's last (incomplete) exploration; there has been no solid work done in the intervening time, so we are roughly where we were in 1970; here is what I believe I know about it; the field is wide open for exploration; and, whether or not the technique is very useful in practical astrology, its very existence is relevant to understanding the structure of the zodiac in particular and other things astrological in general.

So... go for it! We have a whole sub-forum here just for discussion of the Novien.

[Lyse]

I haven't yet written the Novien chapter of The Big Book, but it likely will take the position that this was Fagan's last (incomplete) exploration

Looking forward to it.

[Jim Eshelman]

Not that long ago, I noticed that my Novien Moon is 15° Virgo in the exalted degree of Mercury. That degree does reflect my all-consuming emotional need to gather and disseminate information of every type, and in whatever manner available.

This btw is exactly the kind of digging we need - looking for solid-seeming contradictions or confirmations. I'd forgotten that, for comparison, I already had a posted list of public figures with Novien Moon in Virgo. I didn't find much in my own brief looking, but perhaps you have a greater sensitivity to what they may have in common? (It at least may engage your very Virgo-seeming information-driven interests.)

viewtopic.php?f=61&t=6313#p46680

[Lyse]

I didn't find much in my own brief looking, but perhaps you have a greater sensitivity to what they may have in common? (It at least may engage your very Virgo-seeming information-driven interests.)

I’ll also have a look at their natal Moon, because what I realized about my own chart was this emotional need for information is projected through a Leo Moon, with a focus on being a ‘star’ at whatever I do.

[SteveS]

Lyse wrote:

I’ll also have a look at their natal Moon, because what I realized about my own chart was this emotional need for information is projected through a Leo Moon….

Lyse, I am curious: How much on a scale of 1-10 with the higher number being more so—is this “emotional need for information” related to astrology with your Leo Moon? Or is this "need" for any field of endeavor with your life?

[Lyse]

Or is this "need" for any field of endeavor with your life?

It is, Steve, I’m that way with subjects that interest me and a bit obsessed with a few of them.

[SteveS]

Lyse wrote:

It is, Steve, I’m that way with subjects that interest me and a bit obsessed with a few of them.

That is most interesting Lyse. I know this about you—you are the best member we have on the forum when it comes to researching details for finding correct/incorrect birth times and birth places for natives, I have always been impressed with your detailed work. So, the astrological question you posed for yourself is where does this “obsession” for details come from in your Natal? I agree with you—it has to involve your Natal Mercury placement and that is why I ran your 9th harmonic to see if there were any glaring aspects with Mercury and Bingo there was that MC-Mercury cnj, but we have to respect Jim’s belief that angles in a 9th should be ignored. Right now I would have to agree with you on your assessment it’s your Novien Moon in 15 Virgo in the exalted degree of Mercury symbolizing this “obsession” with details. We will get into your harmonics later in the harmonics topic. I will also do a quick scan of your midpoints involving your Natal Mercury and report back in the Midpoints topic if I catch an important midpoint.

[SteveS]

Jim, Bradley told Fagan:

To be consistent the Navamsas, if genuine, should also commence from the beginning of Taurus and not from the beginning of Aries.

I can understand Bradley’s prejudice against the beginning of Aries, but what I can’t understand is why the beginning of Taurus. Do you have any words from Bradley why the 9th (Navamsas) should start from 0 Taurus, or know specifically why 0 Taurus?

[Jim Eshelman]

Is it fair to call it "prejudice" when it is based on the entire weight of ALL scholarly evidence on the subject?

His reported words to Fagan sound off the cuff, relying on the rich history of Fagan's work on the subject. That is, it wasn't based on astrological evidence. Neither of them had ever looked at these charts that way. Fagan had never been impressed with the Hindu astrology sub-charts (and probably had some firm prejudices against them), but K.M. Kharegat kept pushing him to look more deeply at them. From the story Fagan told, it seems that, while contemplating this, he asked Bradley in passing whether he thought there was anything to the Navamsa. Bradley responded (very casually) something like, "Oh, I dunno... but, if so, it probably starts with Taurus."

The zodiac Alexander the Great's Greek armies took to India began with Taurus. The original Indian "lunar mansions" (nakshatras) began with 0° Taurus. But the Greeks, at some point, started thinking of Aries as the first sign (primarily because their worldview held that Earth was the center of the universe and its equinoxes and solstices were the anchoring points holding reality together). The Greek schools in Alexandria influenced Indian astrology for centuries and substituted Aries as the starting point. It all went downhill from there.

But that's how it all went to poop. The main point is that both Egypt and Babylon began the zodiac with Taurus, and this is the zodiac originally carried into India that had already defined its own "lunar zodiac" to begin with Taurus as well.

[SteveS]

I had no ideal there was so much astrological ancient evidence charts were being used starting at 0 Taurus. This kinda blows my mind. Now I understand why Bradley told Fagan if he was going to investigate the Hindu 9th he should start em with 0 Taurus. But does this mean by putting Moon on ASC at 0 Taurus???
Jim wrote:

… but K.M. Kharegat kept pushing him to look more deeply at them.

So we know K.M. Kharegat had great faith in the Navamsa Chart, but Fagan & Bradley thought they were worthless because K.M. was not starting em from 0 Taurus, correct? This is confusing to me.
I went back and re-read Fagan’s Novien stuff in “Astrological Origins” leading to this question:
Is it fair to say that the main use of a comparison for relationships with Novien charts is for marriage or potential sexual relationships? This may have been discussed before on the forum but I skipped because of no experience with Noviens or how to calculate em with SF.

[Jim Eshelman]

I had no ideal there was so much astrological ancient evidence charts were being used starting at 0 Taurus. This kinda blows my mind. Now I understand why Bradley told Fagan if he was going to investigate the Hindu 9th he should start em with 0 Taurus. But does this mean by putting Moon on ASC at 0 Taurus???

Several ideas are confused here: The idea of putting Moon on "Ascendant" (1st cusp) of the Novien was Fagan's presentation of one way Hindu astrologers display Navamsas, taking Moon's place for 1st House. He later came to understand how much Moon is linked to 9.

Since there are no angles in the Novien, putting Moon on 1st also gives the effect of angles because anything close to the "angular cusps" is really a conjunction, opposition, or square to Moon - much the same as if similarly close to an angle.

… but K.M. Kharegat kept pushing him to look more deeply at them.

So we know K.M. Kharegat had great faith in the Navamsa Chart, but Fagan & Bradley thought they were worthless because K.M. was not starting em from 0 Taurus, correct? This is confusing to me.

Kharegat had great faith in the Navamsa because he was a long-trained Hindu astrologer. He's the original innovator, by the way, of the Navamsa Solar Return that Bradley later statistically discovered and called the Ennead. Kharegat wrote quite a lot for Spica, which you helped us retain for everybody - you can find many of his articles in the Spica archives.

Fagan and Bradley had little confidence in the Navamsa for several reasons, I imagine. One, it simply hadn't impressed them. Two, Fagan was rightfully suspicious (even disparaging) of all the many forms of schematism that crept into astrology from the Greeks forward - we often went on rants against schematism - and the Navamsa, like all the Hindu varga systems, is rampant schematism.

Despite this, Kharegat asked him to put that prejudice aside and take another look. Perhaps before talking to Bradley he had already started re-looking and just wasn't impressed. I get the idea this happened one day when Fagan (living in Tucson by then) dropped by the American Astrology office on Alvernon Way to drop off an article or pick up a few pads of chart blanks and he poked his head into Bradley's office to chit-chat. When Bradley dropped (what seems) his pretty nonchalant remark, Fagan looked some more and - wow, this time he was impressed!

Sadly, I have no copies of American Astrology from 1969 except the yearbook. Whatever box those were in while in storage must have gotten destroyed when there was a water leak or otherwise were lost. Therefore, the only AA issue I have where Fagan talks about the Novien is in his last "Solunars" article in the March 1970 issue, where he discussed the Novien of Earl Bertrand Russell. The article is interesting but it doesn't have any additional information on the background. My recollection (from reading all these articles decades ago) is that Fagan's introduction of the Novien in AA was essentially what he wrote in Astrological Origins.

But Fagan also wrote an article on the Novien in Spica, Vol. VIII No. 2 (January 1969). You might want to read that article for some of his background. (It begins by saying he had been developing this in AA for two years, so perhaps I should look for 1967-68 issues.)

Is it fair to say that the main use of a comparison for relationships with Novien charts is for marriage or potential sexual relationships?

A primary use in India is to identify marriage partners, though it is also used much like a second birth chart and fully read. I think Fagan correctly identified that the marriage angle really referred to sex - something very lunar.

[Jim Eshelman]

I've mentioned that my Novien luminary, Venus, and Mars positions have numerous significant, close contacts with the birth charts of women in my relationship and sexual history. I should document this better but, of course, don't want to attach names or identifying information . Limiting myself to a 3° orb, here are all contacts with those for whom I have timed charts. (Regrettably, some of these only make sense with added details that it would be inappropriate to write, though I think the general trend can be seen.) - One review, I decided to leave out the three outer planets (which congested the list considerably) even though there were some remarkable contacts (but less personal).

I'll mention that my Novien Moon is in Libra and I have been with more Sun-in-Libra women than any other sign, including my first wife.

3°32' Lib - Sun [we spent 6 months trying to get pregnant]
4°03' Cap - Venus
4°09' Cap - Mars
4°16' Ari - Sun
4°17' Lib - Asc
4°21' Cap - Venus
4°26' Ari - Sun
4°35' Cap - Jupiter
4°36' Can - Asc [major relationship over a decade]
4°48' Lib - Mercury
5°03' Can - Asc
5°15' Lib - Saturn
5°42' Can - Jupiter
5°49' Cap - Mercury
6°01' Ari - Sun
6°18' Cap - Venus [longest relationship
6°26' Can - Venus
6°36' Libra - my Novien Moon
6°57' Ari - Mars
7°01' Ari - Jupiter [longest relationship]
7°07' Cap - MC
7°09' Can - MC
7°12' Ari - Asc
7°16' Lib - Sun
7°21' Lib - Mars
7°55' Lib - Asc
7°56' Can - Asc
8°01' Lib - Sun [my first wife]
8°05' Cap - Mercury
8°16' Cap - Sun
8°29' Cap - Mercury
9°01' Cap - Venus
9°10' Ari - Mercury

14°01' Tau - Sun [my wife]
14°09' Sco - MC
14°14' Leo - Moon
14°43' Sco - Jupiter
14°49' Leo - Venus
15°45' Sco - Sun
15°54' Aqu - Moon
15°57' Sco - Sun
15°59' Leo - Moon [my wife]
16°11' Sco - Sun
16°14' Tau - Moon
16°17' Aqu - Mercury
16°17' Aqu - Saturn
16°42' Aqu - MC
16°53' Leo - Sun
16°55' Scorpio - my Novien Venus
16°56' Aqu - Venus
17°02' Leo - MC
17°32' Aqu - Jupiter
17°43' Leo - Jupiter
17°47' Leo - MC [my first wife]
17°52' Leo - MC
18°12' Sco - Jupiter
18°19' Leo - Venus
18°29' Aqu - Mercury
18°51' Sco - Mars
19°02' Tau - Sun
19°03' Leo - Saturn
19°05' Aqu - Jupiter
19°19' Leo - Venus
19°57' Aqu - Venus
20°10' Aqu - Mars
20°30' Aqu - Mars [my first wife]
20°18' Sco - Sun
21°32' Sco - Venus
21°51' Sco - Mars
22°04' Aqu - MC
22°06' Leo - Moon
22°09' Scorpio - my Novien Sun
22°19' Tau - Jupiter
22°24' Aqu - Jupiter
22°29' Sco - Asc
22°31' Sco - Mercury [longest relationship]
22°42' Sco - Mars
22°52' Sco - Moon
22°58' Sco - Mercury
23°14' Sco - Sun
23°57' Tau - Mercury
23°59' Aqu - Mars
24°01' Tau - Mars
24°15' Aqu - Moon
24°21' Leo - Jupiter
24°31' Sco - Mars
24°34' Leo - Jupiter
24°35' Sco - Sun
24°53' Sco - Moon [longest relationship]
25°04' Aqu - Mars

17°22' Can - Jupiter
17°22' Cap - Moon
17°49' Cap - Mars
18°07' Ari - Jupiter
18°23' Lib - Saturn
18°45' Can - Sun
18°47' Ari - Jupiter
18°57' Can - Moon
19°12' Can - Mercury
19°16' Ari - Jupiter
19°20' Ari - Venus [my wife]
19°23' Cap - Mars
19°39' Can - Mars
19°46' Lib - MC
19°47' Ari - Moon
20°00' Ari - Saturn [this encounter went badly]
20°18' Aries - my Novien Mars
20°23' Lib - Mercury
20°32' Lib - Saturn
20°38' Lib - Saturn
20°53' Can - Mars
21°23' Lib - Sun
21°32' Lib - Sun
22°04' Lib - Sun
22°18' Can - Mars
22°32' Lib - Mars
22°33' Ari - Sun
22°42' Ari - Venus
22°55' Lib - Mercury

[SteveS]

I think Fagan mentioned the Novien having much to do with Moon has a lot to do with sexual situations/relationships. I will try to find his exact words to quote.

[Jim Eshelman]

I think Fagan mentioned the Novien having much to do with Moon has a lot to do with sexual situations/relationships. I will try to find his exact words to quote.

There is another thread summarizing Fagan's views on the Novien:
https://solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=142

This thread is for summarizing, as a teaching tool, my own current thoughts and working approaches to the Novien.

The rest of the forum is for discussing Noviens as we see fit.