Bija correction valid?

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Aug 05, 2008 11:32 am

ija What is your take on the BIJA CORRECTION as laid out in Fagan's Primer of S.A.?
Please elaborate on why or why you don't use the BIJA correction for SNQ's

In a SPICA Journal I have...Firebrace gives a rather convincing example of the neo-SNQ and I would like to do some research with it.

Would you happen to know where I could download a copy of the BIJA TABLE? Unfortunately lost my Primer of S.A. where it is listed.

Do you use the SNQ at all? If so, what is the best way to calculate it with either Solar Fire ver. 7 or JANUS 4? and/or please provide calculation formula for the SNQ.

Sidereal Regards, Mike

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Aug 05, 2008 1:05 pm

What is your take on the BIJA CORRECTION as laid out in Fagan's Primer of S.A.?

The Bija correction was simply Fagan's earliest way of calculating the Q1. We have better ways now, but the Bija tables will still give accurate results.

My opinion on the Q1 is that, though the final jury decision isn't in, the Q2 swamps it in every objective test I've ever seen (but not in the selective but impressive case studies in Bradley's book on the U.S.A. chart). Both the Q1 and Q2 quotidians work - they're equally valid - but as a way of calculating progressed planetary motion, I see about 4-5 cases of the Q2 being decisively better for every case of the Q1 being better. (This doesn't count the ongoing monitoring over the years of watching my own progressed lunar aspects mature - first at the Q2 rate, and then several weeks later as a Q1. The latter essentially never shows as anything.)

Bradley had a similar opinion that can't exactly be measured against mine above. He remarked about several studies comparing progressed aspects and quotidian angles together - rather than isolating the separate phenomena - and said that the Q2 pile was about 3-to-1 better than the Q1. He also pointed out that, from the margin notes on the personal chart files he inherited from Fagan, Cyril was coming to the same conclusion in the last years of his life.

In a SPICA Journal I have...Firebrace gives a rather convincing example of the neo-SNQ and I would like to do some research with it.

"Neo-" is late-Fagan code for "use apparent solar rate." I just don't find that this times as well - whether Q1 or Q2 - for quotidian pace. When there is a practical difference, mean rate works better. - This is a separate question from the Q1 vs. Q2 question.

Would you happen to know where I could download a copy of the BIJA TABLE? Unfortunately lost my Primer of S.A. where it is listed.

Not off hand. I haven't needed it in decades and haven't looked on line. Have you tried Google? Are you calculating charts by hand or by computer? Any quality astrology program today that is at all Sidereal-sensitive is going to give a Bija option on Secondary Progressions.

Do you use the SNQ at all?

Of course. Both Q2 and Q1 variants.

If so, what is the best way to calculate it with either Solar Fire ver. 7 or JANUS 4? and/or please provide calculation formula for the SNQ.

Again, to be clear: SNQ can be Q1 or Q2, and can be Mean or Apparent ("Neo-" rate).

Solar Fire will calculate only Mean Rate. IMHO that is all you need anyway. Go into Current Settings on the Progressions tab. Set "Chart Angle Progression" to "Mean Quotidian." If you want to see the Q1 (as if you'd used the Bija table), select under "Progression Day Type" select "Bija (Q1)." If you want to use the Q2, select "Standard (Q2)."

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Aug 05, 2008 10:33 pm

Jim, I have no experience working with the Q2 rate but after your post on the Q1 verses the Q2, I will definitely start paying more attention to the Q2 rate.

Could you offer some case examples using the Q2 rate pertaining to major events associated with well known people?

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Aug 05, 2008 10:59 pm

Could you offer some case examples using the Q2 rate pertaining to major events associated with well known people?

There are loads on this forum. You can probably put "Q1" or "Q2" in the search box and find the posts.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Aug 06, 2008 4:04 am

SNQY.GIF

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Aug 06, 2008 4:13 am

SNQX.GIF

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Aug 07, 2008 7:28 pm

Many Thanks for BIJA table and calculation example.

Next step for me is to do some research

Sidereal regards, Mike

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Aug 07, 2008 7:51 pm

You are welcome.

Remember if you are using Fire Fox select View, Page Style,
No Style, to view the table and example in full width.

Bob

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Aug 08, 2008 1:22 pm

Great! Have copied and printed BIJA tables. Thanx...

I've been at loggerheads trying to calculate Q1 or Q2 with SFire ver. 7 but get different results from the manual calculation as outlined in the tables you provided. If you have SFire Ver. 7 could you please forward step by step how to calculate Q1, Q2 in the program?

Thanks Again, Mike

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Aug 09, 2008 1:05 pm

Mike,
My version of SolarFire is 5.0. Following is a step by step procedure for calculating Q1 & Q2 quotidians. I then will give you an example chart using the Q1 rate where you can check and see if you calculated it correctly.

1: First you have to click the Edit Preferences Button. On my version it is identified with a pink hand with a finger pointing to some dashed lines. If this is not on your tool bar you will have to select this to be placed on your tool bar. Let me know if this is not on your tool bar.

2: Once you are in the Preferences Screen—Click on the Prog/Dirns Button. This will carry you to setting your personal methods of progressing or directing a chart.

3: In order to calculate quotidians—under the Chart Angle Progression Type-- you must select Mean Quotidian.

4: Under the Rate for User Defined Prog--- mine is set to default which is 0.002737909. I don’t believe step 4 matters when calculating quotidians.

5: Under the Rate for Primary Directions mine is set for 1 Year per Degree. Again, I don’t believe this step matters for quotidians.

6: Under Progression Day Type—Select either the Standard (Q2) or Bija (Q1). If you will select Bija Q1, I will offer you a chart example for computing a quotidian.

7: Under Rate For User Defined Directions select default—mine says 1 degree.

8: Under Prog/Dirn Relocation Option—leave unchecked.

Many years ago, I was led to the importance of quotidians by a brilliant astrologer who used the Q1 rate and stated: “I’ve found planetary angularity in quotidians to be among the most “event orientated” indicators in astrology.” When I read this I tried to find this astrologer but instead found another siderealist who told me that he also was getting excellent results using the Q1 rate with planetary angularity. He taught me how to run quotidians using SolarFire and what little research I have done using the Q1 Rate—it has produced outstanding results pertaining to events relative to one’s environment.

Jim says his work/research/experience indicates the Q2 Rate is just as important, if not more important, than the Q1 Rate pertaining to events. I have no experience (yet) with the Q2 Rate. Only anecdotal evidence exists among astrologers working with quotidians and as Jim states more research and evidence is needed. I have worked very closely with a couple business clients with their Q1 quotidians. When they have important business meetings they always call and want me to run out their quotidians. Many times they have told me the planetary symbolism on their quotidian angles described perfectly the psychology of their meetings. I personally look upon quotidians as being the next major frontier in astrology. What is needed is a specialized computer program that will offer a HIT LIST of important quotidian days with the Natal/Solar Quotidian.

Using the Q1 rate—here are the steps (SolarFire) for computing an important Q1 quotidian that occurred with G.W. Bush on Jan. 20th 2005.

Birth Data: July 6th 1946, 7:26 AM EDT, New Haven, CN, 41N18, 72W56---AAA Rated

* Using the Sidereal Zodiac:

1: Compute the Birth Chart. Should show 0 degrees 13 minutes Aires on the MC

2: Highlight the Birth Chart under Calculated Charts

3: Click on the word Chart in upper left hand corner—then click Return & Ingress

4: Change the Date to July 1st 2004 and then relocate to Washington DC (Be sure to check relocated button) under the word Location. Under the word ‘Which One’ Check Nearest. Click the OK TAB and this will calculate W’s 2004 SSR under the Calculated Charts. Double Left Click W’S RETURN—which should give you a chart of W’s 2004 SSR set for DC—should show an MC of 3 degrees 44 minutes Aquarius.

5: Next Highlight W’s 2004 SSR under Calculated Charts then Click on the word Chart in upper left hand corner and then Click on Progressed. Put Jan 20th 2005 (The predetermined date when Presidents are inaugurated) in the Date box. Make sure Place box shows Washington DC. Click the OK Button and this will Compute W’s 1/20/2005 Progressed SSR Q1 Quotidian highlighted under the Calculated Charts. Double Left Click W’s Progressed Chart and you will see a big fat Q1 Progressed Moon/Jupiter Paran sitting on the IC/MC axis.

Quoting from Bradley’s book, ‘Solar and Lunar Returns’ under Moon/Jupiter: “A candidate for public office can hardly expect election if Moon/Jupiter configurations are lacking in his return charts.”

Looking at W’s 2004 SSR we see the SSR Moon AT 13 degree 17 minutes Aquarius and his SSR Jupiter at 19 degrees 21 minutes Leo. The only planetary body that will progress any significant degree arc in a solar year is the SSR Moon—which will move 13 degrees using the Q1 rate. Therefore we know the SSR Moon will progress to a partile opposition with SSR Jupiter sometime during the Solar Year. It just so happens this partile opposition matures with a Paran dead on the MC/IC angles on the date of the inauguration—1/20/2005. This Q1 quotidian clearly armed the Astrologer using the sidereal technique of quotidians--- W was going to win the 2004 election.

Let me know if this allowed you to see your objective.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Aug 09, 2008 1:22 pm

I gave these instructions before using Solar Fire 6 (didn't specify the version), and they're probably worth repeating.

There are several paths to the final answer, but they all require (1) pick Quotidian as the method for the angles, (2) pick Q1 or Q2 as the rate, and (3) run a Secondary Progression. (In case the basic point wasn't clear, the Q1 and Q2 are two rates of Secondary Progressions - the underlying method is standard Secondary Progressions. The SNQ, whether Q1 or Q2, is simply Secondary Progressions using a Quotidian pace for the angles rather than the "primary" orughly-degree-per-year rates.)

Under Current Settings on the main screen in Solar Fire, click on more or less anything (e.g., Angle Progressions) to open up the tabbed options box. On the Progressions/Directions (Progs/Dirns) tab, under Chart Angle Progression, pick Mean Quotidian. Then, under Progression Day Type, pick either Q1 or Q2 - your choice according to the technique you want to use at the moment. Q1 is the Bija-based rate (and is labelled as such). Q2 is the 'standard' rate (and is labelled as such).

Click OK, then calculate a Secondary Progressed chart (I just click the Progressions button on my Solar Fire toolbar.)

On interpretations and evaluations: I think it important, in evaluating Q1 vs. Q2, do distinguish the angles from the progressed planets. Where I seriously question the validity of Q1 at all is in the progressed planetary rate - at best it is secondary in my experience, and I actually question whether it is a valid rate at all. This statement, however, doesn't apply to the Q1 angles, which I take as interchangeably valid with the Q2 angles. I hold open the possibility (liklihood?) that the Q1 angles are valid from something unrelated to Secondary Progressions at all and are a technically independent technique. I'm not at all surprised that Q1 angular "hits" are dead-on - that's my experience also.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Aug 09, 2008 9:24 pm

I hold open the possibility (liklihood?) that the Q1 angles are valid from something unrelated to Secondary Progressions at all and are a technically independent technique.

Jim, I think I came across an answer (I hesitate to assert it is the answer) to this conundrum of two similar types of Secondary Progressions running concurrently. I have been working up to presenting this idea on this Forum in an organized manner, but I will rush ahead and hopefully not make the notion incomprehensible. The short answer is that you are on the right track but have it reversed, and here's how:

1. I will assume that in Progressions, the working units are the Sidereal Day (SD), the Sidereal Month (SM), and the Sidereal Year (SY). In terms of Civil Days (CD), these values are:

1 SD = 0.9972696 CD
1SM = 27.321661 CD
1SY = 365.256360 CD

(For the non-technical, a Civil Day, is the plain-old, ordinary day of 24 hours we all use all the time.)


2. In Secondary Progressions, therefore, 1 Real Sidereal Year = 1 Progressed Sidereal Day. This is the Q1 progression:

365.256360 Real Days = 0.9972696 Progressed Day

and the User-defined ratio to put into Solar Fire is 0.00273032782.


3. In another posting, I mentioned Jimm Erickson's insight that Primary Progressions are:

1 Secondary Progressed Year = 1 Primary Progressed Day.

In other words:

133,412.2085 Real Civil Days = 0.9972696 Primary Progressed Civil Day.

The User-defined ratio is 0.00000747510.


4. With this concept of a Progression of a Progression firmly in mind, I will breeze over the fact that several families of Progressions of Progressions can be constructed, and focus on one in particular.

1 Tertiary Progressed Year = 1 Progressed Month

It can be easily demonstrated that this works out to be:

9,979.4104 Real Civil Days = 27.321661 Progressed Civil Days

and the User-defined ratio is 0.00273780311. This is essentially the Q2.

Q.E.(maybe)D.

I have no speculation about why planetary aspects in one is better than in the other. This may answer why angular contacts are both valid, but it's a mystery why one should be more reliable.

I must say that I have spent much time carefully picking my way through this notion of Progressions of Progressions. Visualizing Earth, Moon and Sun spinning around in space really did make me dizzy. Hopefully, I have made no egregious math or equivalancy errors in this posting. I can do that sometimes.

Comments, devastating critiques?


Regards,
Derek

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Aug 09, 2008 9:26 pm

For Unique Astrology....

Please give Birth Data and Data for tr. Sun in order to check thoroughly.
thanks, Mike

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:32 pm

Thanks Derek for the formula....the symbolism certainly describes Bush's inaugural 2005....however when comparing solar fire Q1 calculation with BIJA formula example ...angles do not agree....working it out is very confusing...can you you please clarify further?

Thanks, Mike

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Aug 09, 2008 9:57 pm

1. I will assume that in Progressions, the working units are the Sidereal Day (SD), the Sidereal Month (SM), and the Sidereal Year (SY).

Experience prevents me from accepting this assumption. The evidence of the Q2's solid showing dictates that the mean solar day (civil day), and not the sidereal day, is the basis of secondary progressions. (The "sidereal day" is no more related to the Sidereal zodiac than to the Tropical; in fact, as usually defined, it is expressed in Tropical terms, though the difference doesn't matter.)

2. In Secondary Progressions, therefore, 1 Real Sidereal Year = 1 Progressed Sidereal Day. This is the Q1 progression:

Correct. That would be the definition of the Q1.

and the User-defined ratio to put into Solar Fire is 0.00273032782.

If you want; or just click "Q1" on the rate choice and be within a few seconds.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Aug 10, 2008 9:35 pm

Thanks Derek for the formula....the symbolism certainly describes Bush's inaugural 2005....however when comparing solar fire Q1 calculation with BIJA formula example ...angles do not agree....working it out is very confusing...can you you please clarify further?

Thanks, Mike

Give me a few days to get started. I'm still moving furniture back into my apartment. Hope to get a desk back together this week. Like most people here, I'm struggling to be assured that Solar Fire is giving correct results. This discussion will give me an opportunity to focus on the issue.

Will using [holds nose] George W. Bush as an example be acceptable as a common work project?

This may be relevant: I remember reading that Solar Fire has always used 365.25 days as the length of the Sidereal Year, but I can't find that reference on-line now. If true, this can be at the root of some computational differences.

Regards,
Derek

[BlueKnight22]

Hello all,

Could someone please tell me a little more about how Mean Quotidian is calculated by Solar Fire?
Since it is mean, does that indicate that it is Naibod. And is it Longitude or Right Ascension?

I use it all of the time, but I can't find anything about how it is calculated.

Thanks so much.

Dave

[Jim Eshelman]

Could someone please tell me a little more about how Mean Quotidian is calculated by Solar Fire?

Sure, Dave, anything you want to know besides what you asked?

Since it is mean, does that indicate that it is Naibod. And is it Longitude or Right Ascension?

It's identical to what you would calculate manually with the Right Ascension of the Mean Sun (RAMS). As for, "is it Naibod"... maybe that's not exactly the right question. Essentially yes, since Naibod's rate is the average daily solar motion, that's what the MC advances daily, though one doesn't have to get into that to calculate it.

I use it all of the time, but I can't find anything about how it is calculated.

The Q2 equates one Mean Solar Day to one Sidereal Year. (Solar Fire uses the Tropical Year, which makes only a tiny bit of difference - one most opeople would not normally notice.) Linear rate.

Te Q1 equates one Sidereal Day to one Sidereal Year, linear rate.

[BlueKnight22]

Thanks. That is helpful. So I have a few more questions, because I am really trying to understand all of this. (And I do have a good background in geometry BTW).

One thing I have noticed is that if in Solar Fire I do User Progression Rate of 1.0, it generates progressions that are exactly equal to transits. And this is what I expected (so I am glad that it works!). However, the only peculiarity is the progressed AC. I assumed that this User Progressed (rate=1.0) AC would be the same as the Mean Quotidian AC. And I checked it for the 4 combinations of (RA vs Long) & (SA vs Naibod), and they all give results that are close to Mean Quotidian, but none are exact. [Also, progressing the AC this way gives identitcal results for Q1 and Q2 - not sure why that is?]

So I am trying to understand what is going on here??

[Jim Eshelman]

Thanks. That is helpful. So I have a few more questions, because I am really trying to understand all of this. (And I do have a good background in geometry BTW).

One thing I have noticed is that if in Solar Fire I do User Progression Rate of 1.0, it generates progressions that are exactly equal to transits. And this is what I expected (so I am glad that it works!). However, the only peculiarity is the progressed AC. I assumed that this User Progressed (rate=1.0) AC would be the same as the Mean Quotidian AC. And I checked it for the 4 combinations of (RA vs Long) & (SA vs Naibod), and they all give results that are close to Mean Quotidian, but none are exact. [Also, progressing the AC this way gives identitcal results for Q1 and Q2 - not sure why that is?]

So I am trying to understand what is going on here??

This thread is specifically about the legitimacy of the Bija correction. - Your first question yesterday was at least peripherally on topic.

For a different topic, please start a new thread. (Then we'll come back and delete this one after you've had the chance todo that.) A short answer, though, is that in the custom/user progression rate, 1.0 means a 1 for 1 equation of time, or 1 day = 1 day.

[BlueKnight22]

According to my calculations, the Solar Fire Bija correction, causes the progression to be 1 Sidereal Day/1 Sidereal Year. Does anyone have any information on progressions that are 1 Tropical Day/1 Sidereal Year? I ask this because I too think the Bija (Q1) correction is less valid than Q2, but that it may only be because the Tropical Day is more valid than the Sidereal Day. The Sidereal Year may be more valid than the Tropical Year. It is harder to tell because the difference between the Sidereal and Tropical Year is smaller than the difference of the Sidereal and Tropical Day. It is definitely more of a matter of fine-tuning. Thanks.

[Jim Eshelman]

There's no such thing as a Tropical Day (nothing called that) ; what do you mean by Tropical Day?

Or, actually, what is call weld the Sidereal Day is actually a tropical day because it's a rotation in Sidereal time which is a tropical coordinate.

The SF Q1 secondary progression calculates 1 Sidereal Day = 1 Tropical Year.

[BlueKnight22]

Sorry, I had it backwards. And I meant to say Solar (Civil?) Day.

I guess what I am asking is if there is any info or statistics on the difference of timing between using Tropical Year vs Sidereal Year on Secondary Progressions. And yes, there is also the Q2 vs Q1 option, so the 4 options would be:

1 Solar Day = 1 Tropical Year
1 Solar Day = 1 Sidereal Year
1 Sidereal Day = 1 Tropical Year
1 Sidereal Day = 1 Sidereal Year

Jim I know you have said that the statistics favor 1 Solar Day = 1 Tropical Year OVER 1 Sidereal Day = 1 Tropical Year, but I am wondering about the statistics when using Sidereal Year.

Also, would this have been better posted in?:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=7413&p=53456&hilit ... day#p53456

Thank you.

[Jim Eshelman]

None. Too similar, too new, and MAYBE too small except it can reach a degree in the anglds