Relocated progressed angles?

[Arena]

I remember having seen some discussion that we should use relocated angles and progress them. Do we have actual evidence that rel. pr. angles work better than pr. natal angles after one has relocated?

[Jim Eshelman]

I remember having seen some discussion that we should use relocated angles and progress them. Do we have actual evidence that rel. pr. angles work better than pr. natal angles after one has relocated?

oh, I don't think they work better. I think they both work side-by-side. Examples I've seen lean toward natal always being stronger in a tie, but there haven't been that many examples of concurrent hits to both.

I posted a stream of doens of Tertiary charts on the old forum (may not have made the cut) where the angles - both birthplace and local - were astounding, often hitting within minutes (not using the whole 1° orb at all, rarely more than 10-15'). If anything, the locals seemed more vivid for those. In Primary angles, it has seemed slightly the other way.

But I think both are valid. Their aspects are rare, but decisive when they hit. An argument for why both are valid is that these actually form within a few hours after birth, and actually occurred at birthplace; but that's a theoretical argument and may be irrelevant.

For some recent examples in my own life: The late 2014, early 2015 contact of p MC to natal and progressed Pluto, and p Asc conjunct progressed Saturn (birthplace) was an extreme, mostly involuntary uprooting and severing.

A series of years in the late '80-s and early '90s had my Jupiter-Uranus coming to MC and my Neptune to Asc (stretched a bit by progressed Jupiter having moved a couple of degrees). It began with my being elected to the board of an international nonprofit and then, a few months later, being up for the top spot and ending up several years as the number two guy in the organization (BTW, a double win, since I didn't want to win the top spot but was saving it from going into the wrong hands; and the guy I wanted got the top). Before the few years had passed, I'd founded another organization that has persisted about 30 years. Oh, and I was at a peak of earning capacity during most of that stretch.

In contrast, my local progressed MC to Jupiter-Uranus is only hitting now. In some ways, that contact is an argument against local, because my income got reduced by a third. (About a third of my income had been in OT, and new management decisions dropped a hard barrier against more than a token amount of that.) One could argue that reviews and general status have increased, and I'm hoping for some advantage in lifestyle and perhaps income as MC to progressed Jupiter peaks in the near future or when Moon joins them early next year; we'll see.)

[Arena]

Ok thanks Jim. It is a bit more complicated now with all the new relocated angles

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

Their aspects are rare (primary progressed angles), but decisive when they hit.

Exactly! Everyone should make sure what/how Jim is seeing this most important ‘once in lifetime’ hits with primary progressed natal angles to progressed and natal planets, for birth location. When these ‘once in lifetime’ hits fire-off—it is very important to consciously understand the rare timing frames for planetary symbolism involved with primary progressed natal angles.
Jim wrote:

For some recent examples in my own life: The late 2014, early 2015 contact of p MC to natal and progressed Pluto, and p Asc conjunct progressed Saturn (birthplace) was an extreme, mostly involuntary uprooting and severing.

Jim’s progressed primary natal angles (Feb 2015) for his birth location when the event was unfolding in LA:
http://imgur.com/a/rcm8M
Jim’s progressed primary natal angles (Feb 2015) for his LA residence when the event was unfolding:
http://imgur.com/a/Pa6Kt

[Arena]

Did the move also include changes in your work environment or to your status?
Would you say, in hindsight, the move was detrimental or a success?
Why was the move involuntary?

The local pr. angles to Uranus do show a move/uprooting, but so would Pluto.

[SteveS]

Arena wrote:

The local pr. angles to Uranus do show a move/uprooting, but so would Pluto.

It may help you to understand better with birth Pluto, due to certain severe health/death circumstances involving a very close friend to Jim, this angular birth place Venus-Saturn-Pluto primary progression completely ‘uprooted’ Jim's normal life, which involved an 'involuntary 'move'--major malefic (birth Saturn) life change.

[Jim Eshelman]

Did the move also include changes in your work environment or to your status?

None at all.

Would you say, in hindsight, the move was detrimental or a success?

Not an easy assessment. I suppose the outcome was neutral, but the experience itself negative on many levels.

That's an interesting point, BTW. The question implies an idea that (to simply) actions taken under benefic conditions have benefic outcomes (meaning, the event move forward to have other positive eventualities), and the opposite with malefics. For example, that theory would imply that starting a business under benefic progressions, transits, etc. would result in a business that proves a great success. However, I don't think it works that way, at least not directly. Enterprises begun under benefics tend to coincide with opportunities and "good events" during the start, but later stages coincide with later aspects.

It's quite complicated because there are caveats to this. For example, if you start something new under benefic transits in particular, then the "start chart" of the enterprise - which is a radical chart of its own, with its own life - will always have good synastry with your natal. But this doesn't apply to your progressions or return charts.

Why was the move involuntary?

That's too long of a story, and one I've mostly chosen not to tell in any detail. Going more than a little into it means going all the way in, and that actually starts impacting other people's privacy.

[/quote]The local pr. angles to Uranus do show a move/uprooting, but so would Pluto.[/quote]
The Pluto + Saturn was the primary thing. I suppose you could count the Uranus which, on January 1, 2015 (the real pivot point when the main actions took place) progressed MC was within 0°55' (just barely within a degree) of progressed Uranus (1°14' from natal Uranus). I think the Uranus is mostly the two years following in the new place but, yes, it was in orb by a whisper when the actual move occurred.

[SteveS]

Another good example (I used same example on old forum) comparing birth primary angles to residence primary angles for Sam Cooke.

On December 11, 1964, at the age of 33, Cooke was shot and killed by Bertha Franklin, the manager of the Hacienda Motel in Los Angeles, California. After an inquest, the courts ruled Cooke's death to be a justifiable homicide. Since that time, the circumstances of his death have been called into question by Cooke's family.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Cooke
AA Birth Time: January 22, 1931, 2:10 PM, Clarksdale, MS
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Cooke,_Sam
Sam’s (RIP) primary progressed natal angles for birth place with tragic event. Partile 180 Saturn-Pluto on primary angles with Venus tight cnj Saturn, 180 Pluto.
http://imgur.com/a/JgOJT
Sam’s primary angles for same event in LA
http://imgur.com/a/dzNfj

[Jim Eshelman]

For Sam Cooke (using noon for the murder):

Birthplace:
25°10' Gemini p Pluto
25°34'' Gemini p Asc
25°46' Gemini r Pluto
26°06' Sagittarius p Saturn

Event location:
12°45' Taurus p Moon
13°41' Aquarius p MC

I think I must have missed something on the locals. What was the contact of greatest interest? (I couldn't pull the charts up so I just recalculated them.)

[Arena]

Yeah, Jim, I understand it may bee too private. But my thinking was just if it could all fit as combined symbolism for those years. Same for Sam Cooke, maybe it was really outspread news in LA about him and the fact that he was actually famous at the time, hence the Sun on MC - but has to be read in combination to the symbolism on pr. natal.

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

I think I must have missed something on the locals. What was the contact of greatest interest? (I couldn't pull the charts up so I just recalculated them.)

I posted the local for comparison to the birth for primary angles.