Natal Chart - Scarlet Depths

[Jim Eshelman]

Of what?

[Soft Alpaca]

I don't have the energy to live action roll play through life. I feel too much and have responsibilities that I must be real about. I can say I'm a hopeless romantic and I'm moody and can day dream like the best of them. I'm told I have a level hear but it's not down to earth. Sometimes I get "lost at sea" I start to swim or shower and i loose track of time completely, I can also get like this when listening to music or when observing storms.

[Jim Eshelman]

No, no, that wasn't what I was questioning.

You said you were defensive. I was curious what you are defending? (I found "not offended, just defensive" interesting, because nobody is defensive unless there is something against which they feel they need to defend.)

[Soft Alpaca]

I'm always on the defensive even when there is nothing to guard. I'm actually really emotional and Saturn helps contain that. I'm so used to getting hurt I tend to wall up everything around me which is why I come across as cold and cocy and insensitive. When that's probably the opposite of how I actually am. People always see me at first as firey and then earthy or airy (abrasive, then grounded or in the clouds). In all actuality I'm rather emotional before any of those.

[Soft Alpaca]

Any reason why I might relate to my Mars sign more than my Sun and Moon? I reread it's description, I always use my Mars sign first and it cuts to my core.

[Jim Eshelman]

Yes. But it may not be an astrological reason, but a psychological reason.

You have a compelling value against identifying with what is good, true, and virtuous in conventional, aspiring, elitist society. You seem to hate people like yourself, and are committed to not being one of them. So you suppress fundamental truths about yourself.

You're an Eagle Scout who self-judges himself against being (in the slang sense) "a real boy scout."

The wholesomeness of Wonder Bread seems to disgust you.

Or so it seems you are saying.

[Soft Alpaca]

I wouldn't call eagle scouts elite (there are autistic and mentally slow people amongst the ranks and now girls can make these achievement too) , I don't fit the cookie cutter image I only sperate because I don't connect completely and that's ok. If you want to say that I'm in some way a part of societies high achievers I could see the argument. However clearly my own survival and autonomy is more important to me than this. I was wondering if there was astrological value behind this?

[Soft Alpaca]

I think I'm saying more that wonder bread is a staple but I care more about the other stuff in the plate. If the Sun is my ego what if I care more about how I act and react in this world, spiritual placing Mars sign first? Could it be too that I have other Capricorn energy past mars that is easly expressed?

[Soft Alpaca]

I just read the Mars Neptune aspect (I dont have this), because i suspect both a strong Mars and Neptune in my personality. This aspect is very relatable to me, not that I have a high iq or a religious following, but I'm get passionate about my spirituality and driven by sexual expression and realise, eventhough I've often wrestled with the morality behind it, now I except how spiritual sex is when you do it with someone who you love. I do wish I could live on a dopamine high all the time.

[Jim Eshelman]

It might be more useful to look first at what you do have in your chart, rather than to look at out-of-context things to try to find descriptions that match.

As you know, you do not have a Mars-Neptune aspect. (Not, that is, unless there is an unsuspected aspect that is 1/17 of the circle, a septendecimtile.)

Alternately, it could be useful to list traits that you think you have that remain a puzzle (not ones we've already covered, of course), and ask, "Is there anything in my chart that portrays these traits?"

[Soft Alpaca]

My confusion im having right now lies between Mars and Pluto i believe. Something is highly sexual, raunchy, and almost like am addict it could be Pluto and Neptune or it could be Mars, im unsure.

Unaspected Neptune makes sense as being strong, I've realized that over the last couple of weeks, I also feel Saturn in my life, after them I would rank Mars/Pluto. (Jupiter is indeed angular and ruler of my Sun, in theory it should be strong, but in actuality it is apparently average.)

What would you say between Mars and Pluto andtheir strength/appearancy in my personality?

[If you would like to hear about my Neptune traits I can expand on those].

[Soft Alpaca]

Hints at Psychic phenomena, empathy, mood swings, zooming out "wandering", "guru slips", ability to Zen foucus were not covered/I did not mention though likely from Neptune.

High sex drive, temper, vulgarity, raunch either from Mars or Pluto most likely.

Would vicing be Mars or Pluto Jim? Including working out, smoking, drinking, sex etc. The traits "controversial, seeks authenticity, wants to be left alone" go hand and hand with my vicing and aggression, temper, vulgarity etc., they all come from the same place.

[Jim Eshelman]

Pluto is stronger than Mars, because it closely squares your Moon. However, Pluto is not inherently sexual.

The raunchy etc. side you describe is that powerful, essentially exact Venus-Mars square - even more since it is through the filter of Mars in Capricorn and Venus in Scorpio.

[Soft Alpaca]

The same force that makes me want a ciggeret is the same one that wants me to burn down a forest, sleep with someone, get into a fight, rebel against social norms, make people give me space or explode at them. That is all one driving force, unlike my spiritual side or the skeptic which are their own driving forces.

[Jim Eshelman]

Hints at Psychic phenomena, empathy, mood swings, zooming out "wandering", "guru slips", ability to Zen foucus were not covered/I did not mention though likely from Neptune.

Most of this was discussed a couple of weeks ago in another thread. I'm not sure if I ever addressed your psychism.

In general, I wouldn't think of your chart as psychic in the usual meaning and understanding of the term. However, the Moon-Pluto square does rip open subconscious content, and is willing to live outside the social contract. (To explain: I think everybody is extremely psychic, but we have a cultural, consensual agreement that we "won't know" thing about each other. Moon-Pluto is quite willing to say '{bonk} that" to social contracts.) Really the usual psychic indicators (in the Edgar Cayce sense) are all absent from your chart, though Mercury perceptiveness is keen

Besides the Moon-Pluto "{bonk} that," I think Neptune's recent transit to your Moon has ripped some things open and laid you bare for a couple of years. Once that genie is out of the bottle, it never gets entirely bottled again.

High sex drive, temper, vulgarity, raunch either from Mars or Pluto most likely.

This is a mixture of diverse factors, more or less mentioned above. All the sexual stuff is surely your Venus-Mars almost-partile square. Ditto the temper. But there is, indeed, another side - the "{bonk} you and the attitude you rode in on" Moon-Pluto - that can be the "in your face" side of this.

Would vicing be Mars or Pluto Jim?

I don't know what "vicing" is, and can't decode it from your context or from search engines.

[Soft Alpaca]

To vice or crutch is to use some other means of something to relive stress or pain from an emotional situation. Could include drinking, smoking, sex, other drugs, working out, not eating/sleeping, cutting etc. Normally they are all unhealthy acts used to realise tension from a bad situation. Also the people who don't hear acts view them as healthy alternatives to hurting other people, suicide, and etc.

Vice: Immoral or wicked behavior.
Vice: a substitute for

It is putting the actual definitions of Vice together...

A wicked or immoral behavior used as a substitute for [dealing with reality/emotion/life etc.]

[Soft Alpaca]

Thank you for more into Pluto Jim, it helped clarify things a good bit. I spent so much time running from both Saturn (because I thought it was lame at first) and Pluto (because it was too pop culture and I couldn't get real info on it) now I realise these are some of my strongest planets.

[Jim Eshelman]

To vice or crutch is to use some other means of something to relive stress or pain from an emotional situation. Could include drinking, smoking, sex, other drugs, working out, not eating/sleeping, cutting etc. Normally they are all unhealthy acts used to realise tension from a bad situation. Also the people who don't hear acts view them as healthy alternatives to hurting other people, suicide, and etc.

It's probably a mistake to think of these as arising from the same part of yourself.

Or, to be more clear, the need to crutch is probably the same root - the pain and turbulence you're carrying, e.g., the impact on your Moon which aspects Pluto and Saturn and the transits etc. that existed during it. But the particular expressions may not be the same thing. Sure, things like your Moon-Pluto, Moon-Saturn, and Mars in Capricorn inspire antisocial, confrontational actions; but the particular forms are whatever weak spot can be found in your psyche. For example, the smoking is likely your angular Mercury with double Mars connections (ditto drinking and other drugs). The sexual pressure is your Venus-Mars etc. (Smoking also still has a lot of cultural ritual elements in it: The Sagittarius, angular Jupiter, etc.) And so forth.

[Soft Alpaca]

Smoking is definitely not my Sag. I typicaly hide when I smoke even in front of other smokers. Im still not clicking with my Sag or Leo energy as much as my Capricorn by the way.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Smoking is definitely not my Sag. I typicaly hide when I smoke even in front of other smokers.

Actually, hiding your smoking sounds like Sagittarius to me. Why are you hiding? Because you don't want them to mooch off you?
Or because you're ashamed of smoking and it's beneath you? Does it make you a bad role model?

Im still not clicking with my Sag or Leo energy as much as my Capricorn by the way.

Because you keep misattributing things to other signs? People of all signs hide their smoking. The sign comes in with why they are hiding it.

[Soft Alpaca]

Because yes it is nasty but more so because it shouldn't be a social thing, I want my space too.

[Soft Alpaca]

My mom said something important to me today. I'm here to listen and learn more about my natal chart now because of it. I can't say I'll agree, I can say I won't argue.

[Jim Eshelman]

My mom said something important to me today. I'm here to listen and learn more about my natal chart now because of it. I can't say I'll agree, I can say I won't argue.

Welcome back.

[Soft Alpaca]

May I ask about any other interpretations for my luminary signs? I've reread them, also i have read them to my family. It is the traits that I can't get in to, my family finds them laughable and if I really act according to those traits I think I'll just cry and hope someone gives me a swift death.

[Jim Eshelman]

May I ask about any other interpretations for my luminary signs?

Do you mean do we have any other interpretations here that you haven't seen? I don't know what you've seen. This thread where people discussed the nature of a Sagittarius Sun has people's individual observations, but plus a collection of links at the top of pointing to the main information pools on the site. But maybe you've seen all of these.

https://solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=1821

[Soft Alpaca]

Something that us spiritual, emotional and sensitive. Not full and kingly? I would honestly rather be a peasant than a king, in fact if I am I king like I said elsewhere, let my head roll. I would rather be kind and killed.

The foundation of my chart is a royal archetype, this is one of the only ones I will avoid with my life essence. It is this one lane cattle shoot underlying stereotype that I see in my Sun and Moon and it scares me.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Why can't you be both a king and kind? Most kings are kind.

[Soft Alpaca]

I don't like the king or leader thing. Why do I have to be a king?

That's what I dont get with my chart. There us this underlying lack of choice and I hate it. I grew up hating kings and leaders and my chart according to Saggitarius and Leo points there and only there. It is rather flat and unfulfilling.

What happens when I don't want this connotation, I stop using sidereal astrology indefinitely and go back to Capricorn and Virgo business stereotype?

My chart doesn't feel like mine. If i see Jupiter in Pisces constellation it makes it a little clearer, but Jim has told me many times that according to this system there is no way.

[Soft Alpaca]

I must admit sidereal astrology interpretations of my Sun and Moon are not good for my health. I started with running all the traits of my luminaries trough my head and ended up having an angxiety attack...

[Jim Eshelman]

I don't like the king or leader thing. Why do I have to be a king?

You don't. Unless, of course, it's true and you also want to be happy. Happiness and fulfillment lie in consciously embracing what is true about yourself and enacting it in the world. Everyone has a singular gift to unfold for the benefit of the whole world. What's yours?

That's what I dont get with my chart. There us this underlying lack of choice and I hate it.

That's not from astrology. Astrology aside, you are what you are and have no choice about that. You can develop some skills and characteristics more than others, but it doesn't alter what you fundamentally are. Whatever that is... I suppose you would call it lack of choice.

You were born with two arms. Even cutting off one or both of them doesn't change that you were born with two. Is that a lack of choice?

What happens when I don't want this connotation, I stop using sidereal astrology indefinitely and go back to Capricorn and Virgo business stereotype?

I'm not going to be bribed to lie to you about yourself based on keeping you in the Sidereal fold. Of course, if you go back to being a Tropical Capricorn, it will be all about ambition, climbing to the top, and rulership, so...?

My chart doesn't feel like mine.

So another choice is to just accept that, and move on in your life, either staying the same or changing into yourself over time.

You want us to tell you that your chart really says that you are the way you feel yourself to be. We're not going to lie, so we won't do that. You get to sort out the rest.

If i see Jupiter in Pisces constellation it makes it a little clearer, but Jim has told me many times that according to this system there is no way.

Your Jupiter is in Aries. That's a certainty.

You are a royalist. You are meant to rise above people and look down on them as an avatar of superiority. You hate that. I get it. It doesn't change that you are meant to be someone who can never consider yourself the equal of the rest of the people around you. You're an elitist, and ungodly alone and isolated because of it.

Or you can assume I'm wrong and just ignore this. Whatever.

[Soft Alpaca]

What do you mean by I'm an elitist? This word has only negative meaning to me. I'm lonely because I'm flakey at times, some days it's bobs day, other days in suzzys day, it can't always be bob or suzzys day.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

What do you mean by I'm an elitist? This word has only negative meaning to me.

It means you believe you can see the right path though anything. You believe you can see further than most, so you should take the lead, whether that's a path through a jungle, or through a financial tangle, or through a moral dilemma.

That word is almost always used in a negative context, as an accusation, especially when talking about politicians. But look instead at the word it comes from - elite. Elite athletes, for instance. An elite advisory board. The description doesn't say "You are an elitist." It says elitism is a characteristic of people with the Sun in Sagittarius. It means you see yourself as "good at" stuff, and able to reach the top echelons. If you want to be a chef, you believe you can be the top chef at a three-star restaurant.

It also means Sagittarians chafe at having to climb the ladder and prove how good they are, and get upset people don't see their talent as more valuable than somebody else's years of experience. But Sagittarians will then strive to show they are the best once they get it that nobody's handing them the top spot and they have to prove they deserve it.

I'm lonely because I'm flakey at times, some days it's bobs day, other days in suzzys day, it can't always be bob or suzzys day.

No idea what you're talking about there.

[Soft Alpaca]

I have depression wether the following is caused by that depends on who you ask, but I dont see myself as good at anything, in just average, and that's ok. I want to find love and see things, and so what if I do have a talent, so what if they don't beilve in me, as long as I try for myself.

I'm not right all the time, I don't believe I am for even a brief moment.

[Jim Eshelman]

Scarlet, I'm curious about something. Do you have Netflix? David Letterman has a six-episode series called "My Next Guest..." The last episode just came out, and is his interview with Sagittarian (Sagittarius-Aries) Howard Stern.

I'm very curious about your reaction to it. (BTW, the first half is something else - Seinfeld interviewing Letterman - but the second half of episode six is Stern.)

[Soft Alpaca]

I do have Netflix. I prefer not to watch tv, when I do it is normally violent or romantic, I probably wouldn't be in to the show (I don't like any talk shows lol I can talk well enough on my own). Is it a talk show? Again I'm just guessing cause I dont watch much tv. I have seen howard stern before on a got talent show or something. I get chill vibes from him (I vibe everything out, I'm not one for making snap judgements very well, so I rely on my intuition). I can say reflecting on the traits you use to describe sag, I would not use them to first describe him.

[Soft Alpaca]

I stand corrected. I don't like Howard sterns stage presence, he comes across as better than everyone. I don't like how he insulted the guys beard when it was his show. Reflecting in his childhood I can say I was the opposite of the 10th degree narcissist, I would get in trouble for worrying to much. My family life was rough so I didn't always like going home right away (to cook, clean, take care of the kids etc.) So i wouldn't do homework, so I got detention (espically in 6th grade) and I could avoid people. It was hard for me to say no to people who needed my help so I just removed it from ever occurring at times. I think it's humbling that he admits his faults in the show. I wouldn't call my mom out on public radio, eventhough she was a drug addict and brought much pain in our lives, I have forgiven her. I understand his rage about the race issues in his early life.

Is it all an act...

[Jim Eshelman]

I probably wouldn't be in to the show (I don't like any talk shows lol I can talk well enough on my own). Is it a talk show?

Of sorts - not in the usual format. Letterman, for these six shows, has picked one extraordinary guest and has an hour conversation with them. (That is, they usually film much more than an hour, edit the show to fit, and intersperse it with related, secondary footage. For example, when Obama was on, they interspersed it with footage of Letterman travelling to Montgomery to walk and talk to a historic civil rights leader. Each show but the last one had that.)

It's an intimate format - rather amazing, actually. There is a large audience, but two people (Letterman and a guest) sit on chairs and have a conversation. The intimacy in the context of the audience is quite effective IMHO.

I just thought you'd find something of interest and worth your consideration in seeing another atypical Sagittarius who, yet, is ultimately a very typical Sagittarius - just not in ways one first thinks of.

[Jim Eshelman]

I stand corrected. I don't like Howard sterns stage presence, he comes across as better than everyone.

Exactly! (Often, you do, too, btw.)

So, I'm unclear: This sounds (at the end of your post) like you watched it, yes? Yet, the first part of your post sounds like you didn't. Generally, people haven't see seen Stern quite like this before (backed out of his own act: not entertaining or selling, but having a conversation with a friend).

In any case, I wasn't concerned about you liking the show or liking Stern, but in offering a chance for you to see that side of a fellow Sag whose public act is, on the one hand, quite different from yours and, on another hand, eerily similar.

[Soft Alpaca]

How we come across online is not the same as real life, is it safe to say this? I'm not better than anyone Jim, I could understand how you see this, except I believe you are too smart to figure that I actually think I'm above people based off of things I say online. In what little experience I have, i have seen that it is emotions and body langue that help determine how we interpret things, at least they help me. Online we lack most of our human qualities. Not to mention that I have been put in the sign of Saggitarius, so we filter out and see things with a predisposition, I too am guilty of this. I believe there would be much more validity in assessing someone before looking at their chart.

In all of this I do take note some of the traits from Saggitarius and Leo may very well define me, however i think it's the core of them that I don't carry with me. I don't care for everything I've heard about the core of both of these signs. I don't think this much matters because I determine how I live and oh well if it doesn't match me.

[Soft Alpaca]

Please note how I asked if it was all am act, Jim. The coincidence that may make me seem better than another is an act. I'm quite hazy and foggy as a person and my "confidence" that other people see in me, is just me remembering that everything has a purpose and to just flow with it.

[Soft Alpaca]

Reflecting on traits of Sun and Moon. Some of which are befiting, love to travel, aim to higher places [ambition], sttuborn, slightly dramatic, philosophical, somewhat dommeniering all fit.

Aristocratic, diplomatic, royal/of king authors court, persetves status quo, and judges others ate traits that I can't say I display. This could be on account of Pluto Moon.

In addition Sun and Moon Saturn could knock down the kinglyness perhaps?

Mars accounts for any deceit, snake like, dark enigmatic and most mysterious energy.

Mercury being angular in addtion to its connection with Mars/Scorpio accounts for unorthodox thinking and argument in me. .

What's missing is a connection to water, empathic tendices, deep spirituality and reflection, some mystery, and general foggy nature [also Idk if my moods are covered by Saturn and Pluto alone].

Where could the missing link be? Or are these things outside if the chart?

[Jim Eshelman]

Mars accounts for any deceit, snake like, dark enigmatic and most mysterious energy.

Mars is none of these things. For example, it strikes directly and decisively. Other factors may make a martian deceitful, but Mars itself is not. Nor is it the least enigmatic or mysterious.

Mercury being angular in addtion to its connection with Mars/Scorpio accounts for unorthodox thinking and argument in me.

Mercury accounts for thinking, but what makes it unorthodox? Mercury itself is neither orthodox nor unorthodox (except in the sense that facts themselves are inherently "a right or true opinion," and Mercury, at root, is about the facts). Your primary Mercury aspects are to Mars and Jupiter, one of which is direct and the other inherently orthodox.

However, yes, Mercury in Scorpio exactly aspecting Mars is argumentative.

What's missing is a connection to water, empathic tendices, deep spirituality and reflection, some mystery, and general foggy nature [also Idk if my moods are covered by Saturn and Pluto alone].

Depending on what "spirituality" is to you, its probably some mixture of your Moon-Pluto need to penetrate depths and your powerful Jupiter religious urge. Mostly, though, as I've mentioned before, I think some of these things are residuals from Neptune's opposition to your Moon a couple of years ago. In terms of your natal chart alone, I see compassion but not empathy; no mystery at all (in any sense that I understand the word); and no particular fogginess (much more sharpness and acuity).

Well, actually, I suppose you might mean by "mystery" the sometimes dark and self-disclosing character of Mars in Capricorn.

If we give any credit to fixed stars (which I'd really like to think are important, but haven't yet been able to firmly confirm), then you, like me, have Venus exactly opposite Algol, the severed head of Medusa in Perseus' hand - that myth may be meaningful to you.

[Soft Alpaca]

Yes I meant Mars in Capricorn sorry for not clarifying. Yes Jim as my mom says it I am a sponge, i actualy wear tigers eye because everything is cloudy for me. If i were as acute as you would say I don't think I would be here to be honest. I want to believe in your system but I can't prove it's certainty in even myself let alone in others. I can say I am a hopeless romantic and I am here to live with all of my soul. Screw self improvement, as long as I'm able to function enough to love then for me that is living.

Wether it's in my chart is not, I don't cry at funerals for the dead, I hold it together for the living. Seeing people sob makes me a mess, feeling peoples bad feeling makes me want to sob. I'm average on the emotion quotient scale, accept in empathy, which is extremely high.

People describe as mysterious for my appearance and my aloof energy, but also because of how i don't express my feelings and they learn that I have and feel deeper than they do. That isn't smack either, I have to make a constant effort to not be consumed by a endless storm of self perpetuated anxiety when I squash a bug.

I want to look into the stars at the end of Pisces because my Jupiter is connected ro them, and my intuition says a Piscean Jupiter [not in Pisces sign, but for lack of a better word] could point to empathy.

[Soft Alpaca]

What do you mean by religious Jim? They only idea I believe in religiously I can say for sure is love.

My spirituality is an all encompassing faith that connects us all. All religions are as equal as existence as the next, therefore they all exist. We ourselves are just temporary focal points of the universe in this moment of time, at least that's what I believe.

[Jim Eshelman]

That's Moon-Pluto's view, yes.

By "religious" I meant something you disavow. (There's no judgement in that, I'm just exchanging facts and definitions.) I mean the deep need in the human soul to directly connect with something infinitely greater than and over-awning itself. The term "religious urge" or "religious thinking" is also specifically applied psychologically to the Jupiterian idea (which works the same way in the mundane world as in the spiritual) of petitioning higher power the same function whether it is prayer, hitting the boss up for a raise, or begging the dice to fall right.

[Soft Alpaca]

Oh hmmm. I cant say i actively pray, I think it's kind of dumb to ask something so big to worry about you in addition to every thing else its worried about. Never really believed in prayer ever now that I think about it. Jim it seems everything is going back to Pluto [Moon] it's kind of weird and becoming redundant don't you think? It's like basicly I only have my transits Pluto and Jupiter [in action to the luminaries] and nothing else seems to come up.

So the emotional connection to life around me isn't in my chart..

[Soft Alpaca]

Could you help describe some Pluto things for me to grasp on more what your views on the planet are. As simpile gasoline can or tombstone [not saying those things are Plutonian but they came to mind first].

[Jim Eshelman]

Could you help describe some Pluto things for me to grasp on more what your views on the planet are. As simpile gasoline can or tombstone [not saying those things are Plutonian but they came to mind first].

I don't think of planets in terms of things. Even when I slide into it after almost 50 years of knowing better, I try to catch myself and drag myself out of it. Pluto is surely the one planet easiest to avoid doing that with, because, while referring to something quite real, does not pertain to anything day-to-day.

It is easier to describe Plutonian events because the are staggering, displacing, against the odds, etc. This doesn't exactly translate into behavior when we find Pluto prominent in the birth chart, though.

If I were to reduce it to a single word today (on a different day I might pick a different word) it would be unconditional. Pluto is that which is unbeholden to conditions.

Psychologically, Pluto refers to authenticity needs - the desire to be authentically oneself, unhampered by others. It isolates and distinguishes; dislikes labels, categorization, and arbitrary expectations; is eccentric, extreme, separating, disruptive, and antisocial, marking the exception singled out from the statistical, social, and cultural norm.

So, if we were to give it a noun to be, it would be the uncompromisable existential seed-essence of a being.

[Soft Alpaca]

I'm liking focusing on Neptune Jim. Focusing on water, knowing when I get stormy and how to cool down. Im trying to be s much more spritual person by attaching to my detached Neptune. Do you think this effort is in vain and Pluto will work it's way back in to my life and it would be better to accept Pluto now instead of turning away?

[Soft Alpaca]

Also every Pluto thing you say Jim is 100 percent true to how I am.