Solunars by Aldebaran Sidereal Academy

Dow up 292 today. So far with the first 2 days of this week it appears to be confirming a significent bottom last Thrusday.

NYSE finished up over 500 points for the week---indicating IMO it will make new yearly highs before another corrected move down. There is a weekly chart with one of my favorite technical indicators that I have been watching for months. I will later try to post this weekly chart with its technical indicator for better explanation, along with my read on the current SSR for the NYSE Chart.

Below is a link to a 5 year weekly chart of the Dow, my favorite chart to monitor. Put your cursor on the week for 10/10/2022 for a trending bottom at 34,000. Put a small ruler connecting all the bottoms since the 10/10 2022 bottom and note the smooth trend line pointing upwards. This trend line is stopping all corrective moves down in price. If the bottom at 34,000 for week Aug 21 2023 is taken out with a weekly close below 34,000, serious technical damage has been done to the NYSE. Major resistance is at the old all-time high at 37,000 made in the first week of Jan 2022. WD Gann always said it is very important to watch for possible major tops in the first week of every calendar year, sometimes for bottoms as well. Actually the NYSE made its all-time high exactly on a Gann seasonal Sun Date in Oct & Nov 2021. This is how knew in a knowing way a major top was taking place.

If you scroll down further you will note a technical indicator which is very reliable for significant tops & bottoms called the “Relative Strength Indicator.” Since the market is in a firm up-trend the first red flag signal for possible major top will be when this Indicator hits 70% of higher. Note the blues (tops) going back in time. When I see this Indicator hit the blues, I always look for Gann seasonal Sun Dates for possible tops. It looks like to me the market is going to test all-time highs at 37,000, TIME will tell. Anyway, boring to most but interesting to me bacause I love to analyze things (The Virgo in Me ), technically speaking.

https://www.barchart.com/stocks/quotes/ ... tive-chart

Very interesting. From the Capsolar, I think next year will break multiple upward records in the market.

For showing broad trends, here is my favorite chart. The ONE thing to watch is the starting point (bottom) in February 2009. This is the point when we seriously started coming out of Great Recession's market plunges.

Using the ruler trick, lay across a line from that bottom until now. With small wanderings up and down, it's a straight line. It has little valleys and (mostly) little peaks: the little valley around 2016 is one (things softened in Obama's last year, after rip-roaring climbs for seven years), then the understandable steep ravine (drop) when Covid-19 hit in February 2020, then the almost shocking high 2021 climb before recession softened it. The ONLY reason 2022 seemed weak or bleak to some was the contrast to 2021. By now, though, it's not just that the market is up lately, it's that it's restored to essentially the exact same upward slope, the same angle.
From February 2009 through now, it's almost a straight line (with proportionately small up and down variances). In about 14.5 years, it has climbed from 7,278 to 34,837, or 27,559 gain, or about 1,900 a year. That's been so stable, that it's a predictable 1,900 points a year - every year - if you take at least two years at a time when measuring it. On a pure "just add 1,900 points" basis, we'd expect the DJIA one year from now to be 36,737. Since Jupiter is exactly angular in next year's Capsolar for Washington, we expect it to be even better than this - AT LEAST 37,000+ and perhaps breaking 38,000 just before the election.

For sure the market is in an uptrend, old rule, don't go against a trending market. What I will be most interesting in is when the RSI (Relative Strength Indicator) reaches 70 or higher. The Fed and their interest rate policy of climbing rates bothers the market-- but market still in a good uptrend. Stranges inflaction I have ever seen in my life, commodities not inflating except oil/gas, seems to be a labor/delivery costs of goods powerful inflaction. I know this: Cost of eating out, certain foods, gas expenses have gone through the roof----but still no commodities inflaction as a whole compared to what I have seen in the past. It will most interesting to me to see if the market can make new all time highs in 2024 even with the Jup Capsolar.

The Oil Market is cooking appearing to be entering soon into a runaway mode. I have confirmed many, many Moons ago, the Oil Market vibrates to Gann’s “Square of Nine Chart” with their 16 different exact DATES. This may be a good opportunity to see if the Oil Market within the next few weeks has some type of blow-off top, topping to the exact DAY on one of these 16 Dates. Next Date is the Autumn Equinox Sept 23; then Oct 16th. I will be monitoring the next few weeks the Weekly Chart (link below) with its Relative Strength Index, which for right now is nowhere near an overbought market (TOP).

https://www.barchart.com/futures/quotes ... tive-chart

These high Oil prices will soon start having a psychological effect on the NYSE.

Steve, did you know that astrologer L. Edward Johndro (who discovered the Vertex, among other things) did all the stock market work for W.D. Gann? (I'm unclear if this means only did calculation for him, or was involved in the theories.) In fact, there are numerous things about which you have much interest that are discussed from Johndro's work in this short biography.

https://www.uraniatrust.org/celebrated- ... rd-johndro

Interesting Jim, you bring-up Johndro’s work. For the last month I have been moving a couple of dozens boxes of books out of the house into a mini storage facility. Only this past Friday I noticed I had and studied Johndro's published two books in 1929: The Earth in the Heavens and The Stars: How and Where They Influence, they were in one of my boxes of books. I do remember the material in his books were way over my mind’s capacity to comprehend from a technical standpoint, kinda like your technical mind is way over my mind at times to understand/comprehend. But they had to be a reason I bought these two technical books by Johndro and if I had to guess the main reason I bought these two books: somewhere in my in-depth research work on Gann’s Market material there was a reference who tied Gann and Johndro’s market research together.

I will tell you what I absolutely confirmed as a market truth with Gann’s unexplained market material he published, no doubts! When I got with Billy Jones—the man who bought-out all of Gann’s market material and I got hold of Gann’s labeled “Master Time & Price” charts my mind immediately knew that I was onto something very important, but since Gann never explained in his published material how to use these Master Charts, I had to seek outside help, kinda like when I got hold of your work, I had to seek out (Matthew Q) to answer many of my Sidereal Astrology questions. I had a cousin who was a mechanical engineer and I sent to Houston, Texas all of Gann’s Master Charts to him to see if he could figure out WTF Gann was doing with these Master Charts in the Markets, he could not. A couple of months later he met a female (Trish) and started dating her. She happened by chance to run across Gann’s Master Charts laying on a table in his house and started studying em and got me to come out to Houston to sit down with her. The first thing she said was the 24 dates on the Master Charts were dates beginning from the Vernal Equinox and somehow these dates were of supreme importance involving TIME in the markets, she was an astrologer and Tarot reader. The Master Chart she was very interested in was labeled “W.D. GANN –SQUARE OF FOUR MASTER PRICE AND TIME CHART.” I will try and take a picture of this Master Chart and provide a link to it for better sight/understanding.

But, we must understand that one of the main Keys Johndro discovered was quoted from your Bill Meridian's link stating:

Johndro read a chart in multiples of 15 degrees, a division of space by 24 instead of 12. So we concluded that the 24th harmonic ruled change of trend, to move from one state to another.

I am not going into details but 2 years later after hooking-up with Trish in Houston, I conducted intense study with HISTORICAL DAILY PRICE CHARTS, I discovered all kinds of different markets were making important long term TOP/BOTTOMS to the exact DAY on Gann’s Square of Four Master Chart, I was completely blown away, I knew I was onto some kind of Natural Law in the Market Place governing the long term trends of markets, humans were just a tool being used by this Natural Law. I had to simplified the practical use of this Master Price & Time Chart (long story), but my simple practical use of Gann's Master Charts started making the stockholders of the small company employing my services a pile of $. But it must be understood: The main problem with Gann’s Master Chart and all of his published material was nowhere did Gann explain how to calculate which of these exact DATES would reverse on a dime a market trend into the future. But now with your Bill Meridian's link here-- I read where he states this about Johndro:

Johndro used direct and converse solar arcs. Solar arcs became a prime tool in rectification, especially for directing Uranus to the angles. Jayne told me that the pair did all of the stock market work for W.D. Gann. This might explain why Gann's planetary work was sophisticated. Brown wrote that Johndro had developed a successful system for forecasting commodities based upon eclipses.

I find this most interesting!! It could be Johndro discovered the use of Solar Arcs with the 24 DATES on Gann’s Master Square of 4 Chart to determine into the future when/which one of these 24 DATES would change on the exact one of the 24 dates a major market trend? I have proven to myself Solar Arcs can change a major “Life Development” (long term trend) for a native. Also, it should clearly be understood these 24 Master Dates are to the exact day timing major worldwide mundane events to happen. We humans are nothing but puppets being directed on the Solar System’s Stage Play! Maybe I need to do some Solar Arc work on this timed Chart for the NYSE?

So, am I reading you right that Gann's 24 dates a year are simply 15° multiples of Sun motion from the vernal equinox? (In effect, 0°09' and 15°00' of each Tropical sign.)

Jim asked:

So, am I reading you right that Gann's 24 dates a year are simply 15° multiples of Sun motion from the vernal equinox? (In effect, 0°09' and 15°00' of each Tropical sign.)

Exactly! A recent example of one of these Gann 24 dates was Oct 8 when Hamas launched their attack on Israel. Another Gann Date on his Master Square of 4 Chart, Dec 7, the attack on Pearl Harbor. Another Gann Date Nov 22, the assassination of JFK….and so on. When I did my weeks of research with historical DAILY price charts of commodities and stocks I was shocked when I discovered MAJOR TOP/BOTTOMS were being made on these exact 24 dates on Gann’s Master Time & Price Square of 4 Chart. But the most important thing to understand is there is somekind of Natural Law of TIME working here with these 24 dates. More later. It appears Johndro discovered something really important but the problem is Johndro never published much concerning these 24 dates.

OK, I am going to attempt to explain to people who may be interested in what I strongly feel Johndro/Gann discovered about the 24 dates on Gann’s Master Square of 4 Chart for markets. Below is a link to a daily 2 year chart of the Dow Jones going into the past from now present time:

https://www.barchart.com/stocks/quotes/ ... tive-chart

If you will cursor over toward the left until at the top-left you see the DATE of Jan 6 2022, you will note that so far this has been the all-time high in the Dow. Jan 6 is one of the 24 DATES on Gann’s Master Square of 4 Chart. What we are seeing here is a major market event (all time high top) for the Dow which stopped the Dow making new highs to the exact date of Jan 6. In other words it appears: Johndro/Gann discovered an orderly Natural Law in the market places creating major events (major tops/bottoms) on these exact 24 dates with Gann’s Master Square of 4 Chart. Nowhere did Johndro/Gann publically publish how to predict which of these 24 exact dates would produce a major top or bottom into the future with any one particular market. But I have proven to myself by purchasing DAILY price charts covering the entire history of the Gold & Soybean commodity markets that these 24 exact dates are indeed calculating major tops and bottoms to these exact 24 dates. The only way I was able to purchase these historical daily charts was the company I worked for gave me an expense account to purchase what I needed to investigate these Master Gann Charts with the 24 dates on em. It literally took me weeks to investigate ALL of these DAILY price charts with their exact dates. The big question in my mind: Did Johndro or Gann know how to accurately predict in the future when one of these 24 dates would produce a major top or bottom to the exact DAY for a market? I have seen some written evidence where Gann demonstrated to a person in the economic media that there was a Natural Law governing the market place by predicting ahead of time for a major top to one of these exact 24 dates in the wheat market. I was very skeptical and that is why I purchased the daily historical price charts of Gold and Soybeans---in order to prove the truth of this matter with these 24 exact dates on Gann's Master Square of 4 Chart.

How much does it matter that January 6, 2022 is one to two days late?

From what you confirmed of my reading about Johndro, the dates he picked were the 24 days Sun is at Tropical 0° and 15°00' of each sign. These will vary slightly from year to year. At noon 1/6/11, Aun was at Tropical 16°21' Capricorn. It reached 15°00' on Wednesday morning, January 5 just after 4 AM EST, or a day earlier a few hours before the market opened.

Jim asked:
How much does it matter that January 6, 2022 is one to two days late?
An excellent question Jim, I will try to answer but have no clear answer. My best answer is the exact 0 or 15 degrees intervals had to be within the market trading day but I did not research this possibility. Back in my days there was no overnight trading for possible overlap of a day/hours with the 24 Sun Dates. All I did was take Gann’s Square of 4 Master Chart with their EXACT 24 dates and began an intensive research with DAILY price charts of the Gold & Soybean markets and proved 90% of the time major tops and bottoms were occurring on one of these 24 dates. A few times there were overlaps/underlaps by one day from the 24 dates on Gann’s Master Chart. I did prove out that when any of the 24 dates fell on the weekends to ignore, there had to be a trading day for the dates to possibly be effective as a major top or bottom, and the market had to be at an extreme oversold or overbought position on the price chart. What this means is the Dow would have to either exceed the Jan 6 2022 market top or exceed its bottom from the quick/sharp sell-off from Jan 6 major top before their would be a chance for another one of the 24 dates to become effective for another major top or bottom. Do you understand where I am coming from? Also, my research proved-- out: outside the law of averages a-lot of the major market tops and bottoms occurred on Monday’s, only when Monday’s were one of the 24 Sun Dates. It also seems I remember that on these Monday’s there was either a full moon or new moon—but can’t remember which one it was. Most of these 24 dates calculated major tops, the reason being IMO massive amounts of trading volume were associated with these major tops. The more trading volume the better chances for these dates calculating a major top or bottom.

At one time I had Gann’s book list he recommended and one of the books was titled “Numbered Vibration” and soon learned one of the ancient 7 Hermetic Principles was The “Law of Vibration.” I could not find this book in any Library being told that their issues had been stolen. When I got a hold of the Gann material from Billy Jones who purchased Gann’s publishing house in Miami, I had not read any astrology books. But when I started doing research into the Gann material I soon realized I was into some deep astronomical/astrology principles of a Natural Order. It was the Gann material which launched my mind into the study/research of astrology, and here I am late in life.

SteveS wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 5:32 am What this means is the Dow would have to either exceed the Jan 6 2022 market top or exceed its bottom from the quick/sharp sell-off from Jan 6 major top before their would be a chance for another one of the 24 dates to become effective for another major top or bottom. Do you understand where I am coming from?

It sounds like these days have been working as tipping points: If something is over-reached, out of center, vulnerable to tipping, then these days seem to be the point that the law of gravity catches up. (90% is impressive!) I wondering of this "tippping point" metaphor extends to the other big world events you mentioned. (It certainly describes the Israel situation.)

Also, my research proved-- out: outside the law of averages a-lot of the major market tops and bottoms occurred on Monday’s, only when Monday’s were one of the 24 Sun Dates.

Interesting. One usually doesn't hear of Mondays unless it is really a continuation of something already in motion, as in 1929.

Anyway, here are the next 24 Gann tipping points (I thought I'd go ahead and calculate them since the days can vary from year to year). Times are Eastern (for NYC) and I'm just listing the nearest hour:

Mon, Oct 23, 12 PM
Tue Nov 7, 12 PM
Wed Nov 22, 9 AM
Thu Dec 7, 5 AM
Sun Dec 24, 11 PM
Fri Jan 5, 4 PM
Sat Jan 20, 8 AM
Sun Feb 4, 3 AM
Sun Feb 18, 11 PM
Mon, Mar 4, 9 PM
Thu Mar 19, 11 PM
Thu Apr 4, 3 AM
Fri Apr 19, 10 AM
Sat May 4, 8 AM
Mon May 20, 9 AM
Wed Jun 5, 12 AM
Thu Jun 20 5 PM
Sat Jul 6, 10 AM
Mon Jul 22, 10 AM
Tue Aug 6, 9 PM
Thu Aug 22, 11 AM
Fri Sep 6, 11 PM
Sat Sep 22, 9 AM
Mon Oct 7, 3 PM

Some of these calendar dates (more or less recurring annually) are fascinating! Besides 11/22 that you mentioned, the eye immediately catches 12/7. The two dates when regularly elected U.S. presidents have been sworn in are Mar 4 until replaced by Jan 20. But in 2021, the first tipping point of the year was late on January 5 (not 1/6), while in 1776 the mid-year tipping point was July 6, not 7/4. In 1929 a point occurred just before 5 PM on October 23.

2/20/2020 is interesting because it also was slightly late: The Gann point was Tuesday 2/18 at, 11:57 PM. Does this count as "outside the market," or does it mean the first time it can hit the market is the morning of Feb 19? The 2008 collapse seems on schedule since the Lehman Bros. announcement was 9/15 but the market didn't start dropping like a rock until 9/23: The autumn equinox occurred 9/22 at 11:44 AM, the day that marked the teetering top.

Black Monday 1987 came too soon, on 10/19 after an over-night lead from foreign markets.

In 1929, I usually think of the crash occurring on Black Tuesday 10/29 (as we used to say in my family, one week to the day after my dad was born). But 10/24 is a better date for when the tumble began. This one was strangely early since Sun hit the Gann point 10/25 at 4:41 PM (but you did say a day either way). Twenty-two years earlier to the day, the Panic of 1907 began on another 10/24, with the Gann point exactly on 10/24 at 8:52 AM.

The tipping point of the Panic of 1893 was February 20 (as in 2020) with the Gann point two days earlier on a Saturday (2/18, 5 AM), so Monday 2/20 was the first business day. The Panic of 1873 began when the NY Stock Exchange was closed for 10 days beginning Saturday 9/20 (after a bank collapse 9/18), meaning that the first business day was 9/21: But the Gann point wasn't until 9/23 qat 0:21 AM (so late night 9/22, less than two days after while the shutdown was still happening - not sure if that one counts??).

We had previously picked the Panic of 1857 as starting August 24 with a critical bank failure: The Gann point was Sunday, 8/23, 1 AM, so the 24th was the first business day. The Panic of 1937 was already teetering when banks stopped redeeming paper money for gold on May 10: This was too late and seems to have missed the point, though the point occurred the prior Friday afternoon (5/5) - not sure if it connects to the triggering event the following Wednesday (seems not).

But the Panic of 1819 I was finally able to track to January 4 or immediately after. (It was in the first few business days of 1819, which began on Monday Jan 4.) Gann event: Tuesday, Jan 5, 9 PM.

Is this the sort of thing? Am I seeing this right?

I think you are seeing these dates right Jim. After many weeks of historical research with these dates in the Gold & Soybean markets, I had to give a report to the stockholders for my annual expenses for my expense account. Almost all of my expenses were Gann expenses for his course material, historical daily charts, and a Billy Jones Seminar in Chicago when he gave his first seminar on the Gann Material. Jones while speaking at the seminar held-up Gann’s Master Square of 4 Chart as asked the full room audience if anyone knew how to use Gann’s Master Charts. No one spoke-up except me and I told him/audience I had researched the 24 dates with years of historical daily price charts in the Gold & Soybean markets and proved to myself these two markets were making major tops/bottoms (mostly tops) on these 24 dates to the exact day. At the morning break Jones came to the table I was sitting at and asked me out to dinner that evening to pick my mind on my research, but there was really nothing else I could tell him, I only knew what my research proved to me. Many other people in the audience swamped my table thinking I knew Gann’s market secrets, I told them I only knew what I told Jones.

Then, I had to give a full report on my expenses and research to the board of directors. When I proved to the Board with a slide show of many years of daily price charts that there was a Natural Law working in the Gold & Soybean markets with the 24 Gann dates-- they were stunned. I was asked if I could devise a way to isolate to the exact day when there would be high % one of the 24 dates would become activated and I said maybe, but no guarantees. The board proceeded to approve a budget for me to experiment with in the Gold & Soybean markets, but only when I got phone approval from a majority of the stockholders. I devised a simple overbought and oversold technical indicator with the weekly charts and only called the stockholders when I saw this technical indicator activated but only when the markets were at new lows or highs after many weeks/months had elapsed from a previous Gann Date, it worked very well—the board was pleased with my work.

SteveS wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 7:06 am Interesting Jim, you bring-up Johndro’s work. For the last month I have been moving a couple of dozens boxes of books out of the house into a mini storage facility. Only this past Friday I noticed I had and studied Johndro's published two books in 1929: The Earth in the Heavens and The Stars: How and Where They Influence, they were in one of my boxes of books. I do remember the material in his books were way over my mind’s capacity to comprehend from a technical standpoint, kinda like your technical mind is way over my mind at times to understand/comprehend. But they had to be a reason I bought these two technical books by Johndro and if I had to guess the main reason I bought these two books: somewhere in my in-depth research work on Gann’s Market material there was a reference who tied Gann and Johndro’s market research together.

Hi Steve. First time poster here, but a long time reader. I've been following this thread with interest because I've been both perplexed and intrigued by Gann since I came across him 3 or 4 years ago. Like you, he is part of the reason I gained a deepened interest in astrology. (The other part is an interest in Ayurveda, which ironically blossomed around the same time.)

The two Johndro books you were referring to were in Gann's suggested reading list. That's probably why you had them. After you brought up Johndro, I had to do some research, because I was confusing him with LJ Jensen and Charles Jayne. Then I realized I also had Johndro's books, but never really went through them. I had to figure out why I had them.

I find it a little odd how you and I are on a similar path with this. I don't recall your signs. You mentioned Virgo. I'm assuming Virgo sun? I'm also Virgo sun, Pisces moon, Taurus rising.

SteveS wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 5:32 am Jim asked:
How much does it matter that January 6, 2022 is one to two days late?
An excellent question Jim, I will try to answer but have no clear answer. My best answer is the exact 0 or 15 degrees intervals had to be within the market trading day but I did not research this possibility. Back in my days there was no overnight trading for possible overlap of a day/hours with the 24 Sun Dates. All I did was take Gann’s Square of 4 Master Chart with their EXACT 24 dates and began an intensive research with DAILY price charts of the Gold & Soybean markets and proved 90% of the time major tops and bottoms were occurring on one of these 24 dates. A few times there were overlaps/underlaps by one day from the 24 dates on Gann’s Master Chart. I did prove out that when any of the 24 dates fell on the weekends to ignore, there had to be a trading day for the dates to possibly be effective as a major top or bottom, and the market had to be at an extreme oversold or overbought position on the price chart.

In George Bayer's 400 Years of Astrology, he too emphasized 15 degree aspects, particularly in Secondary Progressions. (I tried it with Bitcoin since that trades 24 hours a day, but was never able to get it to work consistently, even using 3 different birth times.) What I find more interesting is the Chinese calendar actually incorporates these same 24 seasonal dates that Gann uses. They use 24 "solar terms" starting from the winter solstice. Since I've gotten into Gann, I've become obsessed with calendars and how they work. So I've studied many major calendars of the world throughout history, looking for a possible clue into what Gann was doing.

Don't quote me on this, but whenever Gann forecasted a date, I think he allowed some "wiggle room" of a day or two on either side of the date. I don't remember the exact wording he used for this but perhaps something about fluctuations in time? It seems he implied that there was some other additional factor influencing the equation. Whether or not he knew how that additional factor worked, I don't know.

To make matters worse, it didn't seem he always differentiated between calendar days, trading days, and degrees of the ecliptic (or right ascension). Regarding the weekend issue, he did mention that in relation to calendar days and trading days. He said sometimes the precise squaring out time would occur on a weekend or a holiday.

You might not have this Johndro book "A New Conception of Sign Rulership", but perhaps he inspired Gann to use 15º divisions of the tropical zodiac. It seems Johndro wanted to create 8 watches of 45º each rather than 12 signs for rulership. Then, for each of those watches, he subdivided it into 3 parts to get sub-rulers. Then, each of those sub rulers were further divided in half to get a set of sub-sub rulers. Perhaps this is why Gann mentioned the 7.5º at times as a minor angle (such as in the pamphlet on the Master Chart of 360º and possibly a few other places I can't recall)?

SteveS wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 5:32 am Also, my research proved-- out: outside the law of averages a-lot of the major market tops and bottoms occurred on Monday’s, only when Monday’s were one of the 24 Sun Dates. It also seems I remember that on these Monday’s there was either a full moon or new moon—but can’t remember which one it was.

This is fascinating, as I've been wondering about how the lunar synodic cycle fits in with the whole equation. This has come from my heavy investigation into the Hindu calendar. I think it may only play a minor part, but might possibly serve as further confirmation for a reversal on some of these dates.

I'm wondering if you happen to know what the 7 day cycle might relate to astronomically. Gann indirectly states that 28 days is a full cycle. I'm thinking this has something to do with the moon, either an approximation of the sidereal/tropical lunar month or the anomalistic lunar month. I did come across some older calendars that used 28 day months in my investigations, but I could not ascertain the reasoning for it.

SteveS wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 10:27 am Then, I had to give a full report on my expenses and research to the board of directors. When I proved to the Board with a slide show of many years of daily price charts that there was a Natural Law working in the Gold & Soybean markets with the 24 Gann dates-- they were stunned. I was asked if I could devise a way to isolate to the exact day when there would be high % one of the 24 dates would become activated and I said maybe, but no guarantees. The board proceeded to approve a budget for me to experiment with in the Gold & Soybean markets, but only when I got phone approval from a majority of the stockholders. I devised a simple overbought and oversold technical indicator with the weekly charts and only called the stockholders when I saw this technical indicator activated but only when the markets were at new lows or highs after many weeks/months had elapsed from a previous Gann Date, it worked very well—the board was pleased with my work.

This is amazing! Thanks for sharing.

°

RingsOfSaturn22 wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 2:54 pm ...inspired Gann to use 15º divisions of the tropical zodiac.

To be clear, these are not necessarily divisions of the Tropical zodiac (especially since the Tropical zodiac doesn't exist). What we know for sure they are is 15° intervals of solar motion past the vernal equinox (which is an astronomical 'object' in its own right independent of any idea of zodiacs). - I'm partly to blame for this since I lazily referred to these points as 0° and 15° 0f Tropical signs.(Nothing in the work reported here has alleged distinctive zodiacal characteristics, just tipping point intervals.)

Also, while 15° intervals have been singled out in other uses of micro-harmonics, it's possible they are, instead, peak and troughs of a 30° wave, which would mark the same points just as well as recurrent 15°-interval spikes. I'd be curious if the economic and other events could be distinguished between even and odd intervals of 15° from the VP, and whether all of the intervals behaved equally.

In the meantime, all we have to work with are 15° intervals of solar motion past the VP.

Welcome to the forum Rings of Saturn. Yes, I am a Virgo Sun too-- partile 90 Uranus. At one time on the old forum I had a WD Gann topic with his Square of 4 Chart posted, and lots of other Gann quotes in the Topic. I never realized Gann had Johndro two books on his recommended reading list. I read Johndro two books but can’t recall getting anything useful from Johndro’s books for my work when I was deeply involved researching Gann’s material. If my memory is serving me, I think I remember Johndro material was way over my head technically speaking, I could not make any market connections to Johndro’s work. But Gann must have made some market connections to Johndro’s work since he recommended Johndro’s work. Gann was a brilliant market researcher and when I combed through his written works I remember he constantly referred to historical market charts as a must in order to prove certain market truths he wrote about. This is why I started my Gann research with daily historical charts and the other reason being that a connection I made in Houston told me she happened to look at Gann’s Square of 4 Chart and told me the 24 Dates had to be a key to his work and these dates dealt with astronomical principles starting with a zero point from the Vernal Equinox with 15 degree intervals of time. This is why I started my research with daily historical price charts specifically looking for major tops and bottoms to the exact days of these 24 dates, and Bingo, I made a very impactful connection with the 24 dates for major tops and bottoms in the marketplace. My research blew my mind, and then I blew the minds of the stockholders of the company with my research work on the Gann material. After my profound discovery with the 24 dates, I realized Gann was trying to convey market truths related to precise astronomical Timing Natural Laws in the marketplace. But nowhere in all the Gann material I sifted through my mind did Gann explain how to use his Master Charts. Other market people turned Gann’s material into a marketing scam---worthless. My best guess is Gann made a precise geometrical connection by taking a historical market top or bottom with these 24 dates and then being able to forecast into the future when another one of the 24 dates would calculate a precise market top or bottom to the exact day, but I am only guessing. Anyway, for us Virgos the Gann material is truly an analytical adventure, kinda like a treasure hunt . I will later try to get back with you on some of your other specific points in your post. Again, welcome, it’s good to be connected to another Virgo who shares some of my market interest . How long have you been tracking this forum?

Jim Eshelman wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 4:34 pm What we know for sure they are is 15° intervals of solar motion past the vernal equinox (which is an astronomical 'object' in its own right independent of any idea of zodiacs). - I'm partly to blame for this since I lazily referred to these points as 0° and 15° 0f Tropical signs.

I stand corrected!

Out of curiosity, though, what exactly is the difference between the tropical zodiac and the description you wrote above? That's what I was trying to communicate so as to not be confused with the sidereal zodiac. But forgive me if I misspoke.

As a side note, I find it very peculiar that Gann didn't write about or at least hint at the sidereal zodiac! Everything he wrote seemed to be based on the vernal equinox starting the year or a movement between two things considered as its own 360º cycle (i.e. from top to top, bottom to bottom, a bottom in relation to a celestial body, the ecliptic in relation to the local meridian, etc.)

Jim Eshelman wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 4:34 pm Also, while 15° intervals have been singled out in other uses of micro-harmonics, it's possible they are, instead, peak and troughs of a 30° wave, which would mark the same points just as well as recurrent 15°-interval spikes. I'd be curious if the economic and other events could be distinguished between even and odd intervals of 15° from the VP, and whether all of the intervals behaved equally.

This would actually make for a great experiment. But considering how Gann emphasized the 45º angle so much, it makes me wonder if the 15º intervals are part of a triplicity of sorts. Perhaps both of these ideas could be tested on the data that Steve has confirmed thus far to see if there is anything there.

Lastly, I'd like to thank you for hosting this forum and all that you have written. I have slowly been digesting it over the years. You are a treasure trove of knowledge! It's an honor to finally interact with you.

RingsOfSaturn22 wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 5:42 pm Out of curiosity, though, what exactly is the difference between the tropical zodiac and the description you wrote above? That's what I was trying to communicate so as to not be confused with the sidereal zodiac. But forgive me if I misspoke.

The Tropical zodiac is a fictitious structure that alleges that the ecliptic is divided into twelve 30° sectors measured from the northern hemisphere's vernal point, the first of which has characteristics symbolically and historically attributed to Aries, the second twelfth to Taurus, etc.

As a side note, I find it very peculiar that Gann didn't write about or at least hint at the sidereal zodiac! Everything he wrote seemed to be based on the vernal equinox starting the year or a movement between two things considered as its own 360º cycle (i.e. from top to top, bottom to bottom, a bottom in relation to a celestial body, the ecliptic in relation to the local meridian, etc.)

The vernal equinox is the connected to the Tropical zodiac theory (though the VP also exists as a thing on its own). It has no connection to the Sidereal zodiac at all. - Additionally, Gann died in 1955. I have no idea what astrological literature (if any) he regularly read. No literature on the Sidereal zodiac was published (not counting a stray article here and there) until 1948 and Cyril Fagan's "Solunars" column didn't premier in American Astrology until 1953. He probably never heard about it.

Lastly, I'd like to thank you for hosting this forum and all that you have written. I have slowly been digesting it over the years. You are a treasure trove of knowledge! It's an honor to finally interact with you.

Thank you. You're most kind.

SteveS wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 5:21 pm Welcome to the forum Rings of Saturn.

Thank you! I've thought about joining and posting so many times in the past, but never felt a strong enough impulse to do it. But this topic was too alluring to resist!

SteveS wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 5:21 pmI read Johndro two books but can’t recall getting anything useful from Johndro’s books for my work when I was deeply involved researching Gann’s material. If my memory is serving me, I think I remember Johndro material was way over my head technically speaking, I could not make any market connections to Johndro’s work.

That makes two of us, haha. It was so different than anything else I had come across at the time. It was probably too soon for me to wrap my head around.

SteveS wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 5:21 pmOther market people turned Gann’s material into a marketing scam---worthless.

It's truly a shame. I seriously question if most of these people actually even managed to figure out what Gann was doing....

SteveS wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 5:21 pmMy best guess is Gann made a precise geometrical connection by taking a historical market top or bottom with these 24 dates and then being able to forecast into the future when another one of the 24 dates would calculate a precise market top or bottom to the exact day, but I am only guessing.

It seems he was definitely doing something with dates based off of the vernal equinox. But the part that perplexes me is he also told to mark the date and duration of all major tops and bottoms, as well as minor tops and bottoms. Then use that as a basis for determining how long the cycle might potentially be in the future. This is what I recall from 45 Years in Wall Street. These durations sometimes didn't line up with the seasonal durations. So it seemed like he was using multiple systems concurrently.

For instance, on page 41, he detailed a high of 162.50 points in the Dow Jones 30 Industrial Averages that occurred on February 11, 1926, which he said was 355 days from the low of 115 points made on March 30, 1925. For one thing, the difference between these two dates is not 355 days, but rather 318 days. So either Gann made a huge typo there or he's intentionally trying to throw us off. The numbers that he usually gives are 315 days for an important change in trend. However, if we treat it as a true solar year of 365.242 days and then take 7/8 of that, we get 319.59 days, which would have been expected to come out on the 320th day. 318 is close, but not 100% spot on.

Then in the next line, he states the Dow made a low of 135.25 on March 30, 1926. He says down 37.25 and a time period of 17 days. None of this adds up!!! 135.25 + 37.25 = 172.50, which does NOT equal 162.50. The difference between March 30th and February 11th is 47 days, not 17 days. If we go back 17 days from March 30th, that puts us at March 13th, which is nowhere close to February 11th. Just nothing adds up. 17 days does not align with any special division of 365 days (or even 360 days for that matter), nor with anything he says on page 11. 47 days, however, is close to 1/8 of 365.242, which is 45.66 days. However, I'm not sure that 47 days is correct because he explicitly states, "This was a rapid decline moving down much faster than one point per calendar day and was the proper correction of a Bull Market and the trend continued up." If we assume the point decline should have been 27.25 over 17 days, then his statement makes sense. But again, nothing else adds up.

Also, in relation to Jim asking about if the date has to be exact, on pages 10 and 11 of that book, it seems that Gann was allowing rather wide orbs of anywhere from 3 to 7 days. He says from September 3-10 and September 21-28 are the most important of the year, particularly for tops or final highs in a bull market.

This is why I have a love-hate relationship with Gann.

SteveS wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 5:21 pmAnyway, for us Virgos the Gann material is truly an analytical adventure, kinda like a treasure hunt .

Indeed!!!

SteveS wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 5:21 pm How long have you been tracking this forum?

I first started around 4 years ago when I was trying to find more information on primary directions as well as what the correct ayanamsha should be. Whenever I would do a search, this forum kept coming up again and again. I loved the quality of information here. Jim's posts were epic!

RingsOfSaturn22 wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 7:08 pm The numbers that he usually gives are 315 days for an important change in trend. However, if we treat it as a true solar year of 365.242 days and then take 7/8 of that, we get 319.59 days, which would have been expected to come out on the 320th day. 318 is close, but not 100% spot on.

I think you need to examine exact dates, not intervals. Sun doesn't move at the same speed all year. Without exact dates (at least calendar dates), you don't really know how long it takes Sun to move (say) 7/8 of 360°.

As one example (but there could be 366 of them), Sun will be 315° (7/8 of a circle) past the 2023 vernal equinox on February 4, 2024, which is 321 days. It will be sometimes more and sometimes less than 319.59 at different parts of the year.

Jim Eshelman wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 5:54 pm The Tropical zodiac is a fictitious structure that alleges that the ecliptic is divided into twelve 30° sectors measured from the northern hemisphere's vernal point, the first of which has characteristics symbolically and historically attributed to Aries, the second twelfth to Taurus, etc.

Thank you. I see the distinction now, particularly regarding the symbology. I definitely did NOT mean to imply any symbolic relations when mentioning the tropical zodiac.

Jim Eshelman wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 5:54 pm The vernal equinox is the connected to the Tropical zodiac theory (though the VP also exists as a thing on its own). It has no connection to the Sidereal zodiac at all. - Additionally, Gann died in 1955. I have no idea what astrological literature (if any) he regularly read. No literature on the Sidereal zodiac was published (not counting a stray article here and there) until 1948 and Cyril Fagan's "Solunars" column didn't premier in American Astrology until 1953. He probably never heard about it.

From what I have understood, he traveled across the world, including to England and India to learn some of this information and gather records. If he was indeed in India for some time, then I'm certain he would have been exposed to the sidereal zodiac. In particular, the square of 9 and square of 8 are both used in Vastu for house and temple construction, as well as many other squares. The way he starts from the center makes it even more curious in relation to the theory behind the purusha mandala (I guess what you could call the cosmic body) and how it starts from the center, which is the brahmastana where the creator energy resides. For this theory, the energy expands and manifests outwards in a spiraling pattern. I don't think these things are mere coincidences with Gann.

Furthermore, Gann recommends a LOT of books by Sepharial, and Sepharial was writing about the Hindu zodiac in those books in the late 1800s and early 1900s, although I'm not sure he had a complete understanding of it. This is why I'm shocked that Gann didn't say anything about the sidereal zodiac. He had to know about it. Maybe he used it secretly? Or maybe he couldn't figure out how to make it work in practice? In The Science of Foreknowledge, Sepharial has a whole chapter devoted to Hindu astrology and talks about the ayanamsha issue. According to him, the Hindu zodiac used Revati at the end of Pisces as an anchor star, which, at the time of the writing of his book, he said at 19º35'17" east of the vernal equinox. That book was written in 1918 and it was on Gann's suggested reading list.

Unrelated, thank you for fixing the broken quote in my post! I realized it was wrong right after I pressed the submit button!

Jim Eshelman wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 7:23 pm

RingsOfSaturn22 wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 7:08 pm The numbers that he usually gives are 315 days for an important change in trend. However, if we treat it as a true solar year of 365.242 days and then take 7/8 of that, we get 319.59 days, which would have been expected to come out on the 320th day. 318 is close, but not 100% spot on.

I think you need to examine exact dates, not intervals. Sun doesn't move at the same speed all year. Without exact dates (at least calendar dates), you don't really know how long it takes Sun to move (say) 7/8 of 360°.

As one example (but there could be 366 of them), Sun will be 315° (7/8 of a circle) past the 2023 vernal equinox on February 4, 2024, which is 321 days. It will be sometimes more and sometimes less than 319.59 at different parts of the year.

I've been considering this and have wondered if that might account for some of the slight variances in the numbers. I think that the numbers Gann gives in his charts and in his books are an idealized model that were just simply there for ease of calculation before calculators existed.

Although, even when I plug in the dates he gave and look at the position of the Sun on the dates he gave (assuming NYC at 12pm), I get 9º19' past the vernal equinox for Mar. 30, 1925; 322º13' for Feb. 11, 1926; and 9º14' for Mar. 30, 1926.

322º13' - 9º19' = 312º 54' of orbital movement between the two dates

While it is in the vicinity of 315º, it's still off by approximately 2º.

One thing I love about you is your precision and attention to detail. But when it comes to Gann, at times it seems like some of that is missing.

With that said, here is the list of dates he gave in 45 Years in Wall Street. I'm curious, with all of your years of experience in astrology and doing mundane readings, do any of these date ranges jump out to you?

January 7-10, 19-24 -- important at the beginning of the year
February 3-10, 20-25 -- next in importance to January dates
March 20-27
April 7-12, 20-25
May 3-10, 21-28 -- equal importance as January and February
June 10-15, 21-27
July 7-10, 21-27 -- next in importance to January
August 5-8, 14-20 -- as important as February
September 3-10, 21-28 -- listed as most important in any year
October 7-14, 21-30 -- important
November 5-10, 20-30 -- very important
December 3-10, 15-24 -- latter date range is important

It's important not to confuse Hindu astrology with Sidereal Astrology, the system created and molded by Cyril Fagan and Donald Bradley beginning in the 1940s.

While Hindu zodiacs are "Sidereal" i.e. aprecessional, their working methods bear little similarity to Sidereal Astrology.

SteveS wrote:
Other market people turned Gann’s material into a marketing scam---worthless.
Rings of Saturn wrote/responded:
It's truly a shame. I seriously question if most of these people actually even managed to figure out what Gann was doing....

Exactly Rings! IMO, they most certainly did not figure out what Gann was doing in its entirely, nor cared to figure it out. The people who bought out the publishing rights of Gann’s material from Billy Jones family after Billy died made it appear to other traders that they did figure it out by selling Gann’s material with exotic advertising. A trading legend on Wall Street like Gann has this natural exotic appeal to other traders/investors. I must go into story mold for my further opinions about Gann’s volumes of market material and my personal experiences when investigating Gann’s legend many,many Moons ago. I was in a very unique position with my investigation---I had an expense account designated to me by a company to investigate anything I wanted to investigate pertaining to making profits in the market place. The stockholder trusted my judgement with my analytical mind. I have not been involved personally in the market place for years, but I still love to track Gann’s 24 dates with the NYSE, still pondering if there is a pure astrological key which sheds further light on these 24 dates maybe cluing us in on how to determine which Gann date in the future will turn the market on an exact date in a big way. I will later post what my mind absorbed last night when looking for the first time the Solar Arcs associated with the all-time high made in the Dow on Jan 6 2022 (Gann date) for this timed chart for the NYSE. Jim's posted link on Johndro's keen interest with Solar Arcs made me look at the NYSE chart for the first time with Solar Arcs. But first some story telling about my personel experiences investigating the Gann legend...

I was lucky enough to meet Billy Jones soon after he bought ALL of Gann/Lambert publishing house in Miami. Billy told me he had to rent 2 U-haulers to bring all of Gann’s material back to the State of Washington (forgot the city). I started asking Billy questions why he bought all of Gann’s material. Billy said he and his family, father/grandfather were large Wheat growers/hedgers, said he knew Gann’s favorite commodity to trade was Wheat before the Soybean was invented/traded. Large Grain producers’ most important timing issue is to time when they hedge or not hedge on commodity exchanges their crops. Billy said he had documented proof that Gann called the exact day when a very important top occurred in the Wheat market. (This was one of the examples I had in my old topic about Gann). Billy said he tracked down the reporter who stood witness to Gann calling this important top in the Wheat Market to the exact day and the exact price for its important top. Billy wanted to see if he could figure out how on this planet a man (Gann) had the knowledge to be able to call a major top to its exact high price in the Wheat market. So Billy had known Gann had died but Gann’s partner (Lambert) was still alive, so Billy got in touch by phone with Lambert asking him if he would help him to understand what/how Gann figured markets. Lambert was only a partner to Gann when Gann retired from trading the markets and decided to market and publish all of his exotic material. Gann needed someone to help him publish his material and Lambert became a partner to Gann because Lambert had knowledges in the publishing business. So Billy started asking Lambert lots of questions, Lambert was old and in poor health. Lambert told Billy he knew absolutely nothing about Gann’s trading methods, but if Billy was so interested in Gann’s personal material to make him an offer, Billy made an offer and all of a sudden he found himself with all the Gann material.

Back home before I made contact with Billy Jones, one night I was reading an economic Journal and one of the articles was about the legendary Gann calling the 1929 Stock Market crash before it happened. The stockholders of the company I was employed by had just recently saddled me with taking over the Company’s Pension fund investments and Company investments in markets. I told em NO—even though I majored in economics in college, I learned nothing, the stockholders said the account executive at the brokerage company in charge of companies investments had not made the company any profits in years---the stockholders figured I could not do worse than the account executive. I did not want this responsibility, but only if they agreed to give me an expense account to investigate this burdensome responsibility in my own way with my own freedom to go where my mind took me. My expertise was booking/contracting movies for the company theaters, but the stockholders knew this came natural for me. Anyway, the expense account the stockholders approved for me was sizeable-- so I said what the hell and off I went looking for contacts to help me figure out a way to make the company profits with their market investments. I turned this new responsibility into an exciting Uranus discovery adventure. It just so happened I made contact with the woman who wrote the article about Gann in the economic journal. She told me she had recently heard through the grapevine that a Billy Jones had bought out Gann/Lambert publishing company, and many well-known respected people on Wall Street looked upon Gann as the most knowledgeable trader/investor on the planet. Somehow I got Jones phone # to his company in Washington State. Billy told me it would take him probably a year to go through all of Gann’s material in order to begin to maybe make any sense for how Gann was able to predict major market tops/bottoms, and for me to give him my office number and he would call me when he was able to figure anything out. So, one day about a year later Billy calls me and tells me Gann’s material was a huge puzzle to him and he was very disappointed he had bought the material. But Billy knew Gann was already a legendary trader on Wall Street/Chicago, so Billy said he was going to put on a Seminar in Chicago selling Gann’s Commodity & Stock Market courses to recoup some of his expenses buying Gann/Lambert publishing company. Billy said he was hoping to meet people at his Seminar who could possibly help him understand more about Gann’s method. I talked Billy in selling me Gann’s course package before the Seminar where I could study the material before I came to the Seminar---remember I had an expense account and a job/responsibly to carry out.

So, when I got the Gann course material from Jones, the first thing I was very intrigued about was the label Gann used for his exotic numbered square charts with the label “Master” charts, and subsequently made contact with Trish (astrologer/tarot) reader in Houston who immediately recognized these Master Charts as something to do with astronomy, dates, and numbers. She told me it was over her head but felt like I needed to get into the study of astrology to understand better. I didn’t give a damn about astrology, but took home with me what Trish thought was the KEY---the exact calendar dates on Gann’s Master charts. The only common sense thing I could figure out what to do next was purchase historical daily price charts of markets to see if I could figure out anything with these 24 Gann’s dates on the Master Charts and Bingo—I did figure out what these dates were representing---major tops and bottoms to the exact DAY of the 24 dates, but I am regressing. Anyway, I loved the city of Chicago and decided to go to Billy’s Chicago Seminar, hoping I could make contact with other people at the Seminar who knew more than me---I didn’t and recognized that everyone at the Seminar paid absolutely no attention to the DATES on Gann’s Master charts. There were many foreigners (Middle East) at the seminar, and when Billy asked if anyone knew what Gann was doing with the Master Charts to please stand-up and explain—I was the only one to speak out about my research with the dates calculating to the exact dates many major tops/bottoms, but again I regress what I have already stated. I though it most strange that at break that the people who flocked to my table asking me all kinds of questions were the foreigners who were asking me astrological questions. I told them I knew absolutely nothing about astrology. When I got back home I called Billy and asked him if he had ever seen any astrological references with the Gann material and he said no but he had only gone through 25% of the material. I asked Billy if he ever found anything astrological to call me, about a year later he called and said he found a cattle price chart and it had Ma-Jup written on it—I asked Billy to send me a copy and then I sent it to Trish (the astrologer in Houston) for her take. The cattle price chart had several geometrical lines converging onto a top in the cattle market with Ma-Jup at the convergence point which you could tell was a significant top-- but with no date on the price chart. Trish said she felt sure the geometrical lines had something very important to do with Gann’s material. I told Trish she was right because all throughout Gann’s course material he mentioned certain specific geometric angles that had to be plotted on the price charts one was tracking. Bottom line: Gann was tracking geometrical angles with the squaring-out of price and time with the DATES. Now I clearly understand why most of the material Billy found with Gann’s personal material were trunks full of price charts with geometrical angles on em---these were trend lines. The Gann material became much too complicated for my mind to comprehend---except for the DATES. I dropped any further research on the Gann material and simplified my own trading/investment plan for the Company only using the 24 dates and other different dates on other square of numbers charts, I will explain this in detail later. I did the same thing when I got into Western Sidereal Astrology, it was complicated to my mind so I had to devise a personal method for my type of astrological purpose, a simplified method for my mind---doesn't mean its the right method, only if it proves certain things out for my mind--kinda like the 24 Gann dates which proved-out certains things in the market place.

@SteveS

WOW! Your stories are amazing. They help to fill in some of the blanks. Please, feel free to share more of your stories!

If Billy Jones needed 2 U-Haul trucks to transport all of his Gann material, I can only imagine the treasure trove of information there! It must have been a mountain of data! I would love to spend a year just going through all of that material. I'm sure one could find MANY connections that he didn't write about explicitly. Gann CONSTANTLY hinted at astrology in his works, but never outright said it until his works from the mid 50s. But he also seemed to be using other things too like numerology (as the way Sepharial taught it) and who knows what else. His system is so complex. It doesn't surprise me that Billy Jones had trouble figuring it out. It's like one big puzzle.

SteveS wrote: Tue Oct 17, 2023 6:42 am I was in a very unique position with my investigation---I had an expense account designated to me by a company to investigate anything I wanted to investigate pertaining to making profits in the market place. The stockholder trusted my judgement with my analytical mind.

I would have had a field day if I had access to something like that! You are so fortunate!

SteveS wrote: Tue Oct 17, 2023 6:42 am I have not been involved personally in the market place for years, but I still love to track Gann’s 24 dates with the NYSE, still pondering if there is a pure astrological key which sheds further light on these 24 dates maybe cluing us in on how to determine which Gann date in the future will turn the market on an exact date in a big way.

You know, I've been thinking about this for some time. Recently, I heard someone make a comment that when it came to forecasting, perhaps Gann wasn't quite as accurate as what people think. So I started going back through some of the Gann material and noticed that when Gann was analyzing past performance, then he was much more precise. However, when he started talking about potential future moves, he would only give more general time frames. Even looking at his forecast for the Ticker in the early 1900s, it reflects the overall up and down contour of price movements and the general date range, give or take a day, but it doesn't reflect the kind of pinpoint precision I was hearing about in stories about Gann. The relative magnitude of price movements wasn't the same as what actually played out, and some of the dates were a little off. But it was indeed a good general forecast -- more than good enough for an experienced trader to make money off of.

This makes me think Gann could identify the general, overall pattern, but not all the specifics, especially since he kept warning traders to follow the rules of trading, making sure you use a stop loss and never risk more than 10% of your capital in a single trade. I mean, if you had pinpoint accuracy, this would be irrelevant. He also wouldn't need to keep updating the forecasts as it got closer to the actual dates.

Have you ever read Gann's book The Magic Word? Or his little article on the human body? If so, what do you think about them?

When I first encountered Gann, it presented a bit of an existential crisis for me. If what he was saying is true -- meaning that he could time the market with pinpoint accuracy years in advance, both in terms of reversal dates and price -- then, what kind of a world do we live in? Is then everything just predestined and we aren't aware of it? It would seem to imply that human beings have no choice in this world -- that all choice is simply an illusion. This is what propelled me to study Gann. I had to know the answer to this question, whether that meant proving Gann as being 100% true, partially true, or completely off the mark. These are also the exact same questions I had about astrology. Personally, I believe that some general trends for our lives are predestined, while the rest gets played out according the decisions we make in life. In other words, there is some level of variability within the confines of a predestined path. But if it turns out that is wrong, then I'd have to rethink life and our purpose here from scratch!

SteveS wrote: Tue Oct 17, 2023 6:42 am I will later post what my mind absorbed last night when looking for the first time the Solar Arcs associated with the all-time high made in the Dow on Jan 6 2022 (Gann date) for this timed chart for the NYSE. Jim's posted link on Johndro's keen interest with Solar Arcs made me look at the NYSE chart for the first time with Solar Arcs.

I'm looking forward to it!

If i'm understanding Steve's research correctly, the guidance would be: If by chance the Dow drops something close to a thousand points (to about 33,000) by Friday, everybody should buy big on Monday 10/23 and expect sharp rises. (i haven't checked the astrology for that... just going by how I understood Steve's findings.)

Jim Eshelman wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:19 pm While Hindu zodiacs are "Sidereal" i.e. aprecessional, their working methods bear little similarity to Sidereal Astrology.

Very true. I will keep that in mind when writing in the future.

I've seen you mention about Vedic astrology on here from time to time. Have you studied it extensively?

Yes.

Jim wrote:

If i'm understanding Steve's research correctly, the guidance would be: If by chance the Dow drops something close to a thousand points (to about 33,000) by Friday, everybody should buy big on Monday 10/23 and expect sharp rises.

No Jim. But first, before I attempt to explain and answer your above statement Jim, I need to correct myself: it was not Jan 6 2022 when the all-time was made in the DOW, it was Jan 5 2022. This was one day before Gann’s Jan 6 Date on his Master Chart. Jim, can you calculate the exact time of day (hour) when 285 degress elapsed from the 0 degree vernal equinox date in 2021? Was it on the calendar day of Jan 5 or Jan 6 2022? This addresses your previous observation Jim that there are slippages of possible one day with the Gann Dates on Gann’s Master Chart containing the 24 Dates, depending on which year the Vernal Equinox occurred.

Now, with further explanations on what has to happen in the Dow before there is a chance WHEN we see the possibility of one of Gann’s 24 Dates making another major top or bottom. With my weeks of research with daily price charts this is what proved-out: The market (DOW) must be at an extreme new low or high on the monthly charts or yearly charts before we even start to look (catch) another Gann Date calculating a major top or bottom!!! Why either on the monthly or yearly charts? Because it all depends on how fast the market is moving. For example in 1980 the Gold Market was moving very fast. It topped on a Gann Date (Jan 20) at app 850 $. This high price was its high for over 25 years before making another new all-time high. After Jan 20 1980 the bottom fell out of the Gold Market and it moved down very fast to app 500$ and bottomed on another Gann Date May 21 1980 and then went-up to 720$ and topped again on a Gann Date Sept 23 1980. I have the daily charts for this in my storage facility. If someone can tell me how to post a link on the forum with a pic from my I-Phone of these daily gold charts, your mind would understand much better what I am trying to explain, that Gann explained in coded words with his course material about the importance of major tops and bottoms on either the monthly charts or yearly charts, its somewhat difficult for me to explain, explanations are much better understood with historical daily price charts. Below is a link to a daily chart encompassing the all-time high Jan 5 2022 and Oct 13 2022 major low in the Dow. Gann would classify the Dow in a very choppy trading market and before there was a chance for another major top or bottom on the yearly charts, new highs or lows had to be made on the yearly charts. In other words, before we have a good chance of seeing another Gann Date activating a major low or high to the exact day of a Gann Date, we must trade above the most recent high or low on the yearly charts!

https://www.barchart.com/stocks/quotes/ ... tive-chart

But, one of 3 possibilities must occur into the future before there will be very high % we catch another major top or bottom with one of the 24 Gann Dates in the DOW.

1: The Dow making new all-time closing highs above 36,952 with confirmation on the weekly charts. This would exceed the Jan 5 2022 all-time high on the yearly charts.
2: The Dow making new lows on the yearly charts since Jan 6 2022 (Gann Date), which would be a closing price below 28,650. 28,650 is a major low made on 10/13/2022. Note: 10/13/2022 was not a Gann Date! Since 10/13/2022 was not a Gann Date, this suggest with higher % that the Dow will make new closing lows on the yearly charts below 28650---before it makes new closing highs on the yearly charts above 36,952.
3: The Dow test again the all-time high on Jan 5 2022 on Jan 5 2024!!! Gann stressed the importance when a major high or low was seen in a market to watch closely the one, two, three year anniversary DATES at the same high or low. I may be able to find Gann’s exact words to quote with material in my storage facility.

SteveS wrote: Wed Oct 18, 2023 6:54 am Jim, can you calculate the exact time of day (hour) when 285 degress elapsed from the 0 degree vernal equinox date in 2021? Was it on the calendar day of Jan 5 or Jan 6 2022?

You gave two different years and I think you meant 2022 for all of them.  Sun wa at the Gann pint January 5, 2022, 4:14 AM EST.

Jim wrote:

You gave two different years and I think you meant 2022 for all of them. Sun wa at the Gann pint January 5, 2022, 4:14 AM EST.

OK! Thanks! Then Jan 5 2022 was the exact mathematical Gann Date (DAY) and, so far, the all-time high in the DOW. The reason I mentioned 2021 was we had to measure from the exact March 2021 Vernal Equinox in order to calculate, which you did, the exact time of the exact 285 degree point DAY (15 degree intervals for Gann’s Jan 5 2022 Date) from the 2021 0 degree point of the Vernal Equinox, which was Jan 5, 2022, 4:14 AM EST. But we have no astrological clues that I can clearly distinguish WHY Jan 5 2022 for a major top in the Dow? From Gann’s writings he clearly states that when a market is making new all times high it is very important to mark the exact date of the new all-time high when a major top occurred, and as more time elapses from a new all-time high the longer it will take to make another new all-time high. In other words a major top which will contain the all-time high for years. Like in 1974 when the Gold Market started making new highs all the way to an exact Gann Date Top on Jan 20 1980, which took another 25 years to start making new highs again. Another way of seeing/analyzing these few Gann Date tops and bottoms: they are associated with MAJOR Market events for MAJOR Tops and Bottoms. No different than when we see major mundane world events with Gann Dates for Dec 7 (pearl harbor); Nov 22 (assignation JFK); Oct 8 (Hamas attacking Israel), they are MAJOR events.
The idea market thing (dream-on, I need another expense account ) to do is plug-in data to AI for ALL the markets and have Alexa tell us when markets were making new high or lows on the monthly charts where a Gann Date trader would know to be on the alert for a possible Gann Date activating itself. This would allow very low risk to high rewards with certain market vehicles that could be bought or sold.

OK, just out of curiosity because Solar Arcs seemed to have been one of Johndro’s main astrological tools, and the possibility Johndro was the person who discovered the importance of the 15 degree day intervals from the Vernal Point passing this knowledge down to Gann, I decide to go back and observe some of the important tops/bottoms in markets with the NYSE Radical Chart (inside wheel); Solar Arcs (middle wheel); and transits (outside wheel). Below is a link to Gann’s Jan 5 2022 exact all-time high DAY in the Dow.
https://ibb.co/Q68MmQj

I see some interesting stuff, but as Jim always notes-- its only one observation with one example, many more are needed.

1: First, for a possible major trend change (new “Life Development”) in the calendar year of 2022, I see:
Transiting Saturn approaching a partile cnj with NYSE Solar Arc EP/WP axis.
2: Transiting Uranus approaching partile 180 to NYSE Solar Arc MC.
Impressive, we see outer planet transits involved with NYSE Solar Arc angles, I have seen the same type transiting action with other natives and their Solar Arc angles.
3: Transiting Neptune approaching partile 180 to NYSE Mars (ouch).
All of these outer planet transits fits for malefic symbolism for downward price pressure on the DOW. But only one example, I am not going to get carried away with just one example.
4: But what really catches my eye for a possible way to predict exactly WHICH Gann Date to possible predict accurately to the exact day of the top Jan 5 2022 is:
Transiting Sun 20,27 Sag partile conjunct NYSE Solar Arc Sun 20,29 Sag. Where is AI and my expense account when I need it ? How many of the 24 Gann Dates in the entire history of the NYSE turned the market when transiting Sun partile 0 90 180 aspected NYSE Solar Arc Sun?

Next with Solar Arcs I will look at the1929 Stock Market Crash with this NYSE chart, but I have no daily price charts to possibly isolate a Gann Date for a possible exact price top to an exact Gann Date Day in 1929. But I will guarantee Gann had these daily price charts, and if you had read all the Gann material I have read, you would realize the same. I need to go down to my storage facility and pull out all of my Gann material to quote some of his written words to see if it may offer us other possible clues.

Rings wrote:

WOW! Your stories are amazing. They help to fill in some of the blanks. Please, feel free to share more of your stories!

I will do that Rings—they are very unique, exciting, amazing, exotic, eccentric, for my individual life, and I understand exactly why this is so with my psyche/life---it’s my Natal Sun partile 90 Uranus with its daily potential paran, and my angular Jupiter-Node aspect which has in a very abnormal way hooked-me-up with some very fortunate contacts in my life. No frigging way with my early poverty rural living environment in Alabama I should have met-up with these “fortunate contacts.” BTW, I just spent an hour digging out a lot Gann Material from my storage unit. I will share some of Gann’s written material and give you my opinions what he was doing in his life technically with Natural Laws. I am missing about 25% of the Gann Material, I lent em out but the person died and his wife had already threw em out.
Rings wrote:

If Billy Jones needed 2 U-Haul trucks to transport all of his Gann material, I can only imagine the treasure trove of information there! It must have been a mountain of data! I would love to spend a year just going through all of that material. I'm sure one could find MANY connections that he didn't write about explicitly. Gann CONSTANTLY hinted at astrology in his works, but never outright said it until his works from the mid 50s. But he also seemed to be using other things too like numerology (as the way Sepharial taught it) and who knows what else. His system is so complex. It doesn't surprise me that Billy Jones had trouble figuring it out. It's like one big puzzle.

Exactly Rings!!! I could not have explained this in better way than your words above.

SteveS wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 8:42 am
I was in a very unique position with my investigation---I had an expense account designated to me by a company to investigate anything I wanted to investigate pertaining to making profits in the market place. The stockholders trusted my judgement with my analytical mind.

Rings responded:

I would have had a field day if I had access to something like that! You are so fortunate!

Indeed ! I was fortunate in so many ways—it’s my Libra Jupiter rising “connecting me up” 180 Node with super fortunate contacts who liked me as a complete stranger. They looked upon me as being a very unique person, again my Sun partile 90 Uranus offering me a natural electric personality with other people, with a most exciting unique life which I understand (know myself) through my Natal Chart with its symbolism.

Rings wrote:

You know, I've been thinking about this for some time. Recently, I heard someone make a comment that when it came to forecasting, perhaps Gann wasn't quite as accurate as what people think. So I started going back through some of the Gann material and noticed that when Gann was analyzing past performance, then he was much more precise. However, when he started talking about potential future moves, he would only give more general time frames. Even looking at his forecast for the Ticker in the early 1900s, it reflects the overall up and down contour of price movements and the general date range, give or take a day, but it doesn't reflect the kind of pinpoint precision I was hearing about in stories about Gann. The relative magnitude of price movements wasn't the same as what actually played out,
and some of the dates were a little off. But it was indeed a good general forecast -- more than good enough for an experienced trader to make money off of.

I completely agree Rings—The only thing I proved-out with the Gann Material as being precise and with exact timing was his 24 Gann Dates for major tops and bottoms. But most normal trending minor tops and bottoms in the marketplace were not Gann Dates. I too have serious doubts Gann was the Super trader/investor he was made out to be. I talked with Gann’s Son on the phone and he told me his Dad made lots of money in the marketplace and lost lots of money in the marketplace---that he was not the glorified legend he made out to be before the trading public minds.
Rings wrote:

This makes me think Gann could identify the general, overall pattern, but not all the specifics, especially since he kept warning traders to follow the rules of trading, making sure you use a stop loss and never risk more than 10% of your capital in a single trade. I mean, if you had pinpoint accuracy, this would be irrelevant. He also wouldn't need to keep updating the forecasts as it got closer to the actual dates.

Again Rings---spot on correct with complete agreement! This is why I took his hard core trading rules and only applied them to when I clearly recognized with high % a Gann Date turning the market on a dime. It simply has to do with risk to reward %. Gann clearly stated in his volumes of material to swing trade only when you saw 10-1 risk to reward in your favor. This is what I did but only when I had in a knowing way with my individual technical methods a Gann turning date was approaching. It takes a lot of patience.

Rings beautifully wrote:

When I first encountered Gann, it presented a bit of an existential crisis for me. If what he was saying is true -- meaning that he could time the market with pinpoint accuracy years in advance, both in terms of reversal dates and price -- then, what kind of a world do we live in? Is then everything just predestined and we aren't aware of it? It would seem to imply that human beings have no choice in this world -- that all choice is simply an illusion. This is what propelled me to study Gann. I had to know the answer to this question, whether that meant proving Gann as being 100% true, partially true, or completely off the mark. These are also the exact same questions I had about astrology. Personally, I believe that some general trends for our lives are predestined, while the rest gets played out according the decisions we make in life. In other words, there is some level of variability within the confines of a predestined path. But if it turns out that is wrong, then I'd have to rethink life and our purpose here from scratch!

Exactly!!! When I got into astrology I immediately knew what I wanted from astrology. I wanted a timing tool to tell me when I finally gained my independence with retirement what to do and what not to do at the times that were already predestined for my life, some good times, some not so good. When I learned WHO I truly was through my Natal Chart, I just started to apply or not apply through my psyche with my life objectives with the times I calculated for myself with my own individual guidelines with certain objectives. I have studied many different methods of astrology and have discovered none better than Western Sidereal Astrology with my best forecasting tool solunars charting. Just like with part of my life I applied the best Gann trading/investment tool I firmly believed in with my own individual research---the Gann Dates. My main objective in my life was to retire to a very simple way of life studying astrology with other like minded astrologers, and doing my best to help other close people in my life with their timing objectives or concerns in life.

SteveS wrote: Wed Oct 18, 2023 9:49 am Next with Solar Arcs I will look at the1929 Stock Market Crash with this NYSE chart, but I have no daily price charts to possibly isolate a Gann Date for a possible exact price top to an exact Gann Date Day in 1929. But I will guarantee Gann had these daily price charts, and if you had read all the Gann material I have read, you would realize the same. I need to go down to my storage facility and pull out all of my Gann material to quote some of his written words to see if it may offer us other possible clues.

Stooq has historical daily price action for the DOW. It only has one price for each day, though, so we can't see what the open/high/low were. I'm assuming the number they list is the close since it is slightly off from the numbers Gann gives in his book.

In 45 Years in Wall Street, he gives the following numbers (p. 31-32):

FOR LOWS

• August 8, 1896, the extreme low of 28.50 for 12 Industrial Averages (he points out 1250% of this price is 384.75, possibly to show relation to the 1929 high)
• August 24, 1921, low of 64 (again highlights that 500% of this is 384.00) (On p. 40, he lists the low at 63.90)
• July 8, 1932, low 40.56 for the 30 Industrial Averages
• July 18, 1933, low 84.45
• October 21, 1933, low 82.20
• July 26, 1934, low 84.58
• March 31, 1938, low 97.50
• April 28, 1942, low 92.69

FOR HIGHS

• November 3, 1919, high 119.62 (he pointed out 325% of this price is 388.50, which is very close to the 1929 high)
• September 3, 1929, high 386.10, closing price of 381.10 (Date further confirmed on page 86)
• April 16, 1930, high 296.35 (Note, on p. 34, he says the high was 297.25, although it might have been a typo based on the sentences around it; on page 70, he also lists the price at 297.25)
• July 18, 1933, high 110.53
• March 8, 1937, high 195.50
• July 15, 1943, high 146.50
• May 29, 1946, last extreme high 213.36

In relation to the 1929 top, on p. 34 Gann also mentioned that a low of 195.35 was made on November 13, 1929 to show its relation using 50% of the top, which would be 193.00, as a support level.

On pages 57-59, he has the whole table of swing movements, the price, and time elapsed for each from 1912 thru 1949. If you need more dates and prices, I can provide them.

SteveS wrote: Wed Oct 18, 2023 12:59 pm I completely agree Rings—The only thing I proved-out with the Gann Material as being precise and with exact timing was his 24 Gann Dates for major tops and bottoms. But most normal trending minor tops and bottoms in the marketplace were not Gann Dates. I too have serious doubts Gann was the Super trader/investor he was made out to be. I talked with Gann’s Son on the phone and he told me his Dad made lots of money in the marketplace and lost lots of money in the marketplace---that he was not the glorified legend he made out to be before the trading public minds.
Rings wrote:

You were able to talk to his son?!?! Wow! The questions I would have asked him, haha. But, you know what? I've read somewhere else online that his son made similar statements about his dad. Thank you for confirming this for me.

SteveS wrote: Wed Oct 18, 2023 12:59 pm Again Rings---spot on correct with complete agreement! This is why I took his hard core trading rules and only applied them to when I clearly recognized with high % a Gann Date turning the market on a dime. It simply has to do with risk to reward %. Gann clearly stated in his volumes of material to swing trade only when you saw 10-1 risk to reward in your favor. This is what I did but only when I had in a knowing way with my individual technical methods a Gann turning date was approaching. It takes a lot of patience.

This makes sense and seems very reasonable.

SteveS wrote: Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:06 pm I have studied many different methods of astrology and have discovered none better than Western Sidereal Astrology with my best forecasting tool solunars charting. My main objective in my life was to retire to a very simple way of life studying astrology with other like minded astrologers, and doing my best to help other close people in my life with their timing objectives or concerns in life.

I don't want to derail the topic of this thread too much, but out of curiosity, what are some of the different types of astrology you have studied?

SteveS wrote: Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:06 pm My main objective in my life was to retire to a very simple way of life studying astrology with other like minded astrologers, and doing my best to help other close people in my life with their timing objectives or concerns in life.

This sounds like a wonderful goal!

Rings wrote:

Stooq has historical daily price action for the DOW.

This is very Rings! Let me show anyone interested a major bottom on an exact Gann Date Friday Mar 6 2009. Go to this Stooq link: https://stooq.com/q/d/?s=%5Edji&c=0&d1= ... 2=20090330 and find/look at exact Dow low made on March 6 2009 at 6,516.86! This was the exact low bottom for the entire year of 2009. This came about from the “Great Recession” that started in the autumn of 2008. Rings, have you seen the movie “Margin Call?”

If I was still working for the same company in March 2009 who gave me trading budget to execute any high % Gann Dates, I would have called stockholders around Mar 1 2009 and said there is a high % Gann date coming up in which I want to risk some low risk $ for at least a 15-1 reward. I would have told them I would only do this if my technicals were in line on Mar 6. The # 1 technical that has to be happening on a possible Gann Date Major Bottom is the market has to be making new lows on all the charts Gann used; the daily chart, weekly chart, the monthly chart, & yearly charts. If the market is not making a new extrem low with ALL of these charts, you ignore the Gann Dates. It is much eaiser to see/understand this when your are tracking all of these charts. If we had access to AI we could program AI to do this in ALL the markets all over this planet. This is why Billy Jones had so many chests of Gann material to trasport back to Washington State from Florida---they were mostly full of historical charts.

Rings wrote:

August 8, 1896, the extreme low of 28.50 for 12 Industrial Averages (he points out 1250% of this price is 384.75, possibly to show relation to the 1929 high)

This is an exact Gann Date on his square of 4 Master Chart. It is interesting Gann says “extreme low.”

Rings asked:

I don't want to derail the topic of this thread too much, but out of curiosity, what are some of the different types of astrology you have studied?

I was first introduced to the German Schools of Astrology labeled “Cosmobiology” by Robert Hand around 1977, it was my first dive into any field of Astrology. Its mainly about Natal Midpoints with Hand’s rules for Natal Midpoints. Midpoints have historical roots but I think no one knows the orginator of Midpoints. Also, this was my first brush with Solar Arcs but did not do much research with them because everyone has different rates of Solar Arc movement. But when computers hit my brain with each individuals Arc rate I started doing more research. I have a topic on midpoints here: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2388

SteveS wrote: Wed Oct 18, 2023 3:25 pm Rings wrote:

Stooq has historical daily price action for the DOW.

This is very Rings! Let me show anyone interested a major bottom on an exact Gann Date Friday Mar 6 2009. Go to this Stooq link: https://stooq.com/q/d/?s=%5Edji&c=0&d1= ... 2=20090330 and find/look at exact Dow low made on March 6 2009 at 6,516.86! This was the exact low bottom for the entire year of 2009. This came about from the “Great Recession” that started in the autumn of 2008. Rings, have you seen the movie “Margin Call?”

If I was still working for the same company in March 2009 who gave me trading budget to execute any high % Gann Dates, I would have called stockholders around Mar 1 2009 and said there is a high % Gann date coming up in which I want to risk some low risk $ for at least a 15-1 reward. I would have told them I would only do this if my technicals were in line on Mar 6. The # 1 technical that has to be happening on a possible Gann Date Major Bottom is the market has to be making new lows on all the charts Gann used; the daily chart, weekly chart, the monthly chart, & yearly charts. If the market is not making a new extrem low with ALL of these charts, you ignore the Gann Dates. It is much eaiser to see/understand this when your are tracking all of these charts. If we had access to AI we could program AI to do this in ALL the markets all over this planet. This is why Billy Jones had so many chests of Gann material to trasport back to Washington State from Florida---they were mostly full of historical charts.

Ok, this is interesting. If we take the Mar. 6, 2009 low price of 6,469.95 (I think you accidentally read the Mar. 9 line), and apply Gann's percentages to it, we get:

6,469.95 * 5 = 32,349.75
6,469.95 * 5.25 = 33,967.24
6,469.95 * 5.5 = 35,584.73
6,469.95 * 5.75 = 37,202.21
6,469.95 * 6 = 38,819.70

Taking the high of 14,198.10 from Oct. 11, 2007, we get the following percentages:

14,198.10 * 2.25 = 31,945.73
14,198.10 * 2.5 = 35,495.25
14,198.10 * 2.75 = 39,044.78

Taking the high of 11,750.28 from Jan. 14, 2000, we get:

11,750.28 * 3 = 35,250.84
11,750.28 * 3.25 = 38,188.41
11,750.28 * 3.5 = 41,125.98

If we go by these price resistance points, the high of 36,952.65 made on Jan. 5, 2022 hit resistance at 37,202.21 (6,469.95 * 5.75). But the other two highs don't add further confirmation to this resistance point. So perhaps it will attempt to retest this point, break through and run towards the 39,000 range where there is resistance at 38,188.41 (11,750.28 * 3.25), 38,819.70 (6,469.95 * 6 = 38,819.70), and 39,044.78 (14,198.10 * 2.75).

For the DOW, does Gann consider the larger, overarching cycle to be 30 years, 20 years, 60 years, 49/50 years, 90 years, or 100 years? Although I think I've seen him use all of the above in reference to the NYSE, I think he uses 60 years (as 3 cycles of 20) and 30 years more. He has a 20x20 NYSE Permanent Chart. If we extend it out to current times, the years 2022-2023 would straddle the 50% line, which he considers to be very important. The year 2021 lies on one of his 45º angle lines, so that's significant. 2024 also lies on another 45º line. If we consider the 30 year cycle as being the overarching cycle, then 15 years would be the significant 50% point. 15 years added to the Mar. 6, 2009 bottom would have us expecting a top sometime in 2024.

In reference to your question about "Margin Call", no I haven't seen it, but will add it to my list of movies to watch.

As a side note, I don't know if you have some of these Gann charts in your collection, but I've come across them over the years. Perhaps they will help you in your quest.

https://www.bonniehill.net/pics.aux/gan ... rt_big.jpg
https://imgur.com/a/OpIyH4X

Rings asked:

Have you ever read Gann's book The Magic Word? Or his little article on the human body? If so, what do you think about them?

I have not read his article on the human body. Do you have a link to this article? On the other hand, I have read his coded book “The Magic Word” several times. It led me to the Bible with many references straight-up astrological in nature. This is when I decided maybe I need to take-up the study of astrology. If memory is serving me, I think I talked with a person at Billy Jones Seminar in Chicago who said this book was coded written forecasting the Great Depression in the early 30s, but not sure about this. Another Gann student said the Magic Word was JEHOVAH (a form of the Hebrew name for God used in some translations of the Bible). What are your opinions Rings with Gann’s book “The Magic Word?”

Just took a look for the first time at Solar Arcs (NYSE CHART) for the all-time high in the DOW for Sept 3 1929 immediately preceding the Stock Market Crash which put the USA into a deep depression. This is what immediately jumped-out into my mind:
Transiting Sun partile cnj Solar Arc Saturn. This is most interesting to my mind! This NYSE has a class 1 180 Saturn-Neptune aspect which is par-excellent symbolism for any kind of crash. But t Sun will partile cnj any Solar Arc factor once a year. But, we saw a partile transiting Sun partile cnj Solar Arc Sun for the all-time high for Jan 5 2022 with other malefic transits outer planet transits. Are there any outer planet transits approaching partile hits to either the Natal or Solar Arcs for NYSE on Sept 3 1929? There sure are:
1: Transiting Neptune is partile cnj Solar Arc Moon!!!! Jim with his brilliant analysis for Financial Panics with Sidereal Mundane Astrology (CAP/CAN Solar Ingresses) correlated with high % Moon-Neptune symbolism.
2: Transiting Saturn approaching 1,21 90 to Natal MC
3: Transiting Uranus partile 180 Solar Arc Sun
Impressive! But what peaks my interest for possible low risk to high reward $ in the marketplace of the NYSE is t Sun partile Solar Arc factors when major outer planet partile transits are in place for the following year to important Natal or Solar Arc factors-- in two investigations with major historical all-time highs has timed to the exact DAY a major top in prices. For sure we don’t want to ignore outer planet transits to our Natal/Solar ARCs for possible major “Life Developments,” as well for this NYSE chart.
Tri wheel link below calculated for Sept 3 1929 (all-time historical high from birth of NYSE). Inner wheel Natal; Middle wheel Solar Arcs; outer wheel transits:

https://ibb.co/2y9trDp

@SteveS

Yesterday, I was re-reading some of Gann's material, as it had been a while since I really looked into it. I was specifically looking for more clues on time periods, especially the "great cycle", since he seemed to mention 60, 100, 90 (and even 56) years as being great cycles in various pieces of his writing. While reading his explanation on geometric angles, he emphasized 90º of a circle as being most important. Then something clicked. It made me think of what you said regarding solar arcs. Perhaps, he was indeed using solar arcs, and viewed a 90 degree solar arc as being the master cycle, hence why he stated 90 years is the great cycle in Master Calculator for Weekly Time Periods to Determine the Trend of Stocks and Commodities, page 3.

On page 6 on geometric angles in The Basis of My Forecasting Method for Grain, he talks about the importance of 90º, and then recommends dividing that 90º portion into 8 parts, each making arcs of 11.25º, and also thirds, each making arcs of 30º. He says, "When we divide 90º by 8 we get 11-1/4, the most important angles to use — then divide it by 3 we get 30º and 60º angles, which are important to use for Time and Resistance Points." I don't know if the end of this statement was only in regard to the 30º points or all the points he mentioned in the entire sentence.

RingsOfSaturn22 wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:18 pm
With that said, here is the list of dates he gave in 45 Years in Wall Street. I'm curious, with all of your years of experience in astrology and doing mundane readings, do any of these date ranges jump out to you?

January 7-10, 19-24 -- important at the beginning of the year
February 3-10, 20-25 -- next in importance to January dates
March 20-27
April 7-12, 20-25
May 3-10, 21-28 -- equal importance as January and February
June 10-15, 21-27
July 7-10, 21-27 -- next in importance to January
August 5-8, 14-20 -- as important as February
September 3-10, 21-28 -- listed as most important in any year
October 7-14, 21-30 -- important
November 5-10, 20-30 -- very important
December 3-10, 15-24 -- latter date range is important

Also, in regards to the question of how great of an orb Gann would allow, while re-reading pages 7 and 8 of Rules for Trading in Soy Beans, Corn, Wheat, Oats, and Rye, he started out by saying we should divide the year into 8 parts, and also 3 parts, and measure these portions from any major top or bottom. Then in the section on natural seasonal dates, he again divided the year into 8 parts starting with the winter solstice — so, Dec. 21, Feb. 5, Mar. 21, May 5, Jun. 21, Aug. 5, Sept. 21, and Nov. 8. (He also mentioned you could divide the year into 16ths.) But then he said, "The variation from these Time Periods is usually 3 to 4 days before or after the actual dates." (For reference, this was written in 1950.)

So, it seems for the natural/seasonal yearly points, only divisions based on 8ths and to a lesser extent, 16ths, were important for him. But when looking at yearly points from a particular top or bottom, then divisions of 8ths as well as 3rds became important.

Rings asked:

As a side note, I don't know if you have some of these Gann charts in your collection, but I've come across them over the years. Perhaps they will help you in your quest.

No, I have never seen these type charts Rings, interesting. Can you tell what Gann was doing with these charts? I think you have studied and know much more than me about Gann’s technical approach to markets, definitely interested in listening more about your Gann studies .

The market I mostly traded was the Soybean Market, but did a hell of lot investing in the Gold Market from Aug 1976 to Sept 21 1980 for the Company who employed me.

I have two good stories you will appreciate Rings. First the Gold story, and later the Soybean story:

When the Company assigned me duty to take over investments in their Pension Fund and Company Fund, the first thing I did was call the Company’s Account Executive (Jack) at Merrill Lynch, I had never met/talked with Jack. I told Jack to not take this personally, but if he did figure out a way to make more $, I was going to have to fire him. He told me give him a couple of weeks and he would get back with me, I said great Jack, looking forward to beginning a new path with you. He called and said Steve, there is a retired Admiral who I know who come to the Merrill Lynch lounge and he has agreed to interview you to see if he could help me with the task the Company had given me, but he may not meet with you again after first meeting. I was puzzled and when I met with him the first question he asked me was what kind of education I had. I told him zero, all I did in college was party. He stared into my eyes and paused and said, “Good, I can teach you something but first I need to see the last 10 years of the Company’s Financials including last 10 years of investments.” I said no problem and mailed them to him. He called and instructed me to come down for another meeting at Merrill Lynch and told me he was going to teach me the truth about economics and tell me how to make the Company’s Pension Fund and Company investment portfolio a small fortune, but he doubted the stockholders would approve what he was going to tell me to do in order be very successful for my new task for the Company. As it turned out, this retired 81 year old Admiral turned out to be the wisest man I have ever been around in my entire life, he died two years after educating me with everything I needed to know in order for navigating rough economic times ahead of me for the rest of my life. If it was not for the Admiral coming into my life, I probably would have been divorced and living in my car.