A strange relationship (insights please)

[Antares5]

I met this girl in early April. Relationship started very quickly and out of the blue. I am not really a relationship guy and I didn't have any feelings for any girl I have been with since 2008. But now it happened that I've fallen for a girl, as much as I hate to admit it.

She is very strange though. At first she was very excited and happy to be with me. She told she was in love with me. We had a lot of fun together and I could tell that her affections were genuine.

But then she started acting weird. She was abstaining from drinking and smoking before I met her. She also seemed like a jolly, talkative and fun-loving girl who was just nice to everybody. Only after two weeks after we've started dating, she began drinking and smoking again. A LOT. By the time I smoked one cigarette, she would have finished off 3 or 4 of them. And I would have never thought that a girl could drink more alcohol than me. She also started fighting with her mother and coworkers. The last three times that we've been out, she is constantly telling me that she is afraid that our relationship won't last. Sometimes I even think that she is afraid of me, judging by the way she is looking at me. It's almost like she is switching between happy and fearfull in an instant.

I don't get it. Why would you act like that if everything is fine? I am starting to think that she is either bullsh*tting me or that she is just batsh*t insane. How do you even handle such a relationship? How do you behave? Because this is by far the strangest I've ever had (but also one of the most fun and exciting).

Here are the birth informations. She told me she is a Libra rising (tropical), don't know her exact birth time. I've put the birth time at 6 AM, because I think Neptune angularity suits her well.

Name : ME
Date : August 5 1988
Time : 5:05 PM (feel free to go by 4 PM as I am almost 100% that it is my actual birth time)
Place : Bijeljina, Bosnia

Name : Girl
Date : September 30 1990
Time : 6 AM
Place : Tuzla , Bosnia

I would appreciate some insights, because this relationship has everything but clarity.

[Jim Eshelman]

We are at a serious disadvantage because we don't have reliable birth times for either one of you. I'll just not rely on anything involving angles, though this costs us some of the most important information about the comparison.

I will mention in passing that your description of yourself in relationships matches your given 5:08 PM CEDT birthtime exceptionally well FWIW.

Since the best birth information we have for her is "Tropical Libra rising," standard procedure is to set up the chart for the center of the known period. If we trust this information, then the center of the period is when Tropical 15° Libra rises, so I've used 6:30 PM, which approximates this; but, as said, I won't really rely on the angles much.

Her chart has a lot of room to be "very strange," given Sun closely square Uranus. She's a Virgo-Capricorn, which is usually a bit more sedate, but Sun-Uranus and Moon-Mars volatilize that.

Why the change? It mostly depends on her accurate birth time. For example, is Pluto really transiting her IC? (We don't know.) Pluto is transiting her Saturn, we know that. Saturn is conjoining her Uranus and (soon) Neptune and (oh, this is the big one) Saturn is exactly square her Sun by transit. She's probably under a lot of stress over something, feels great demands are being put on her, doesn't know how she's going to handle things, is feeling her liberty limited, etc. It sounds pretty uncomfortable.

Is it possible things just got too close for her comfort? Something is going on with her that is legitimately adding a large amount of struggle and stress. Will she share this with you? (Have you asked her what's going on?)

I don't get it. Why would you act like that if everything is fine?

You wouldn't. And I don't think everything is fine at all.

I am starting to think that she is either bullsh*tting me or that she is just batsh*t insane. How do you even handle such a relationship? How do you behave?

Communication is a good start. Will she talk to you about what's going on (and are you ready to listen to whatever it is)?

Let's turn to the chart comparison. The first big thing to emerge is that her Moon is closely opposite your Sun. The attraction is sincere. In fact, her Moon also squares your Pluto, which is a "moth to the flame" type of attraction.

Then you have a very interesting and complex pattern. As you know, you have Venus opposite Saturn-Uranus. Well, her Venus squares all of this: Her Venus to your Venus, to your Saturn, and to your Uranus. You can break these down one at a time - affection and friendship (Ve-Ve), excitement and a sense that love is new (Ve-Ur), and push-pull distance-devotion struggles (Ve-Sa). Bottom line, she is activating (and bringing out in the relationship) the same things that you have to discover and understand about yourself and your own Venus patterns. Until you understand Ve-Sa-Ur in yourself, you won't be able to see what's going on in this relationship.

Her Sun squares your Neptune and opposes your Mars. Besides being physically intense, this is the stuff from which great psychological drama emerges. It is probably you being Neptunian around her that makes you feel she is Neptunian. (Transiting Saturn is squaring her Sun but conjoining your Neptune and squaring your Mars.) Her presence exactly as Saturn makes this transit will force you to come to terms with your own Mars-Neptune patterns.

It would help greatly if you could resolve the birth time issue better.

[Antares5]

Thank you Jim. You hit it very well.

I will mention in passing that your description of yourself in relationships matches your given 5:08 PM CEDT birthtime exceptionally well FWIW.

It does?

Why the change? It mostly depends on her accurate birth time. For example, is Pluto really transiting her IC? (We don't know.) Pluto is transiting her Saturn, we know that. Saturn is conjoining her Uranus and (soon) Neptune and (oh, this is the big one) Saturn is exactly square her Sun by transit. She's probably under a lot of stress over something, feels great demands are being put on her, doesn't know how she's going to handle things, is feeling her liberty limited, etc. It sounds pretty uncomfortable.

Pluto might be transiting her IC (or maybe it's just the Saturn transits) because 2 weeks ago her father lost his job and her mother is retiring this month. She is put under a lot of pressure at work. She thinks she has to go abroad to find a better paying job.

Is it possible things just got too close for her comfort? Something is going on with her that is legitimately adding a large amount of struggle and stress. Will she share this with you? (Have you asked her what's going on?)

I did and she told me everything. I offered her help, but she won't let me help her. All I can do is give her some comforting words. My hands are tied. But all these problems emerged just recently. She started acting weird even before all that drama at home and work happened.

You wouldn't. And I don't think everything is fine at all.

I meant fine between us. Nowadays, she is under heavy stress. But as I said, her sudden change happened before the problems emerged.

Her Sun squares your Neptune and opposes your Mars. Besides being physically intense, this is the stuff from which great psychological drama emerges. It is probably you being Neptunian around her that makes you feel she is Neptunian. (Transiting Saturn is squaring her Sun but conjoining your Neptune and squaring your Mars.) Her presence exactly as Saturn makes this transit will force you to come to terms with your own Mars-Neptune patterns.

Yes, physically intense it was and it obviously triggered some psychological problems. But what kind of Neptunian behaviour could I possibly display towards her? I was clear, straightforward and honest in my dealings with her. Of course she doesn't know everything about me. We've been together for only 2 months.

May I add that she was swift to reveal some very intimate stuff about herself and her life after only 15 days of dating? She acts like she is obliged to tell me everything about her.

It would help greatly if you could resolve the birth time issue better.

My own or hers? Yes, I can ask her about her birth time.

[Jim Eshelman]

I will mention in passing that your description of yourself in relationships matches your given 5:08 PM CEDT birthtime exceptionally well FWIW.

It does?

You wrote, "I am not really a relationship guy and I didn't have any feelings for any girl I have been with since 2008." Venus-Saturn-Uranus expresses Venus through different types of distance and autonomy. Here are the relationship components of standard interpretations from which to extract details:

VENUS-SATURN: Various restrictions (even hardships) in love. Work (with an eye to service) is inherently gratifying; ordinary pleasures may be delayed or sacrificed for responsibilities. Many seem comfortable alone (unpartnered), though there is rarely any sexual restraint (often quite the opposite).
VENUS-URANUS: Pleasure drives are free of social convention or taboo, allowing enjoyment from a wide variety of social and sexual experiences. They approach friendship, love, sex, and other pleasure on their own terms, with a deep instinct for flexibility and freedom from artificial constraint. Socially popular, friendly, engaging, and well-liked, in response to their lightly flirtatious, genial, roguish style. Often requires distance from intimacy or depersonalizes affection, which can strain conventional pairings.

But what kind of Neptunian behaviour could I possibly display towards her? I was clear, straightforward and honest in my dealings with her. Of course she doesn't know everything about me. We've been together for only 2 months.

With Sun-Neptune interchanges, each finds the other to be a temptation that is appropriate to indulge in, as if ordering desert. In some cases, Neptune feels confused, uncertain, and disoriented.

It may draw a Sun-Neptune behavior out of you: unrealistic or disproportionate self-view, an air of secrecy or mystery, love of drama, music, fantasy, mysticism, general surrealism, active imagination, exaggerating the “feeling tone” of a time and place.

May I add that she was swift to reveal some very intimate stuff about herself and her life after only 15 days of dating? She acts like she is obliged to tell me everything about her.

She's a Virgo

It would help greatly if you could resolve the birth time issue better.

My own or hers? Yes, I can ask her about her birth time.

Either would improve conditions. Both would really improve conditions.

[Antares5]

You wrote, "I am not really a relationship guy and I didn't have any feelings for any girl I have been with since 2008." Venus-Saturn-Uranus expresses Venus through different types of distance and autonomy. Here are the relationship components of standard interpretations from which to extract details:

VENUS-SATURN: Various restrictions (even hardships) in love. Work (with an eye to service) is inherently gratifying; ordinary pleasures may be delayed or sacrificed for responsibilities. Many seem comfortable alone (unpartnered), though there is rarely any sexual restraint (often quite the opposite).
VENUS-URANUS: Pleasure drives are free of social convention or taboo, allowing enjoyment from a wide variety of social and sexual experiences. They approach friendship, love, sex, and other pleasure on their own terms, with a deep instinct for flexibility and freedom from artificial constraint. Socially popular, friendly, engaging, and well-liked, in response to their lightly flirtatious, genial, roguish style. Often requires distance from intimacy or depersonalizes affection, which can strain conventional pairings.

Yeah, I know. I've read through all the aspect descriptions. Venus-Saturn-Uranus does make a lot of sense to me, but I have it in my chart no matter the birth time.

It may draw a Sun-Neptune behavior out of you: unrealistic or disproportionate self-view, an air of secrecy or mystery, love of drama, music, fantasy, mysticism, general surrealism, active imagination, exaggerating the “feeling tone” of a time and place.

Now that you've listed these keywords, I see that she displays them to a remarkable degree. I could have displayed some of them, like an air of mystery, fantasy and active imagination. But she hits them ALL.

She's a Virgo

Yeah. You are a Virgo too, right? I find Virgos awesome and all, but, don't you guys need to build at least a little bit of trust and comfort before letting it all out ?

[TheScales_BothWays]

Yeah. You are a Virgo too, right? I find Virgos awesome and all, but, don't you guys need to build at least a little bit of trust and comfort before letting it all out ?

I have the same question too, Jim. But maybe that's my Capricorn Moon speaking. Wait a minute, Antares's girlfriend is a Capricorn Moon too!

May I add that she was swift to reveal some very intimate stuff about herself and her life after only 15 days of dating? She acts like she is obliged to tell me everything about her.

Well, she does have her Moon closely opposite your Sun. She may want to appear supportive of you, make you feel important, cared, and she wants to let you know that she trusts you and you can trust her in return. In fact (aha!) as a Capricorn Moon, maybe she thinks that sharing her personal life is an important sign of hers, a no-brainer (to her) that she trusts you very much?

Not to mention your Mercury partile her Pluto. As a transit, here's Jim's standard interpretation for transiting Mercury to natal Pluto:

T MERCURY - N PLUTO
Confrontation. Decisions are called due, perhaps commitments made. Need for unambiguous answers.

Maybe she doesn't feel it's right to keep things from you for so long? I could be wrong.

Antares, I just noticed something positive. Jupiter will soon transit your Venus-Uranus and her Venus. Here are the approximate dates of the transits:

t.Jupiter sesquisquare (135º) your Venus June 4 to August 17
t.Jupiter semisquare (45º) your Uranus June 21 to July 30
t.Jupiter semisquare (45º) her Venus June 9 to August 11

This could potentially help the relationship between you (if not more), hopefully. Refer to Jim's Jupiter-to-Venus and Jupiter-to-Uranus transit interpretations here.

[Jim Eshelman]

She's a Virgo

Yeah. You are a Virgo too, right? I find Virgos awesome and all, but, don't you guys need to build at least a little bit of trust and comfort before letting it all out ?

My God, man, not when there's information to disseminate! <vbg>

And yeah, what Danica said about your Venus.

[Antares5]

Going with 18:30h as her time.

It's actually 6:30 AM. She said she is a tropical Libra rising.

Her Sun to your Mars is probably keeping the fire up on both sides (orb 1*16').

Fire is up. I can confirm that

The list of inter-aspects by orb, hers to yours:
G. - A.
Pl sq Me 00*00' !!!
Ve sq Ve 04'
Sa cnj EP 18'
Ju cnj Vx 30'
Ve oct Su 36'
Su sq Ne 38'

That Mercury-Pluto square, yes, I forgot to mention. Conversation between us is almost never your everyday chit-chat. It's always about some deep topics.

What a Venus-Saturn thing to say!

Yeah, maybe, but isn't it common sense?

Antares, it may be good to compile the interps for all of your inter-aspects from forum resources here (both from Synastry ad Transits sections) and give it to her to read; it means a great deal in practice when all parties included are at least familiar with their inter-aspects i.e. aware in what patterns the energy between them most naturally tends to flow.

I would really like to do that, but I don't know if she understands astrology that well. She goes by the standard Sun-Moon-Ascendant stuff that beginners in tropical astrology use. She doesn't even know that I am THAT much into astrology as to be posting her birth information on the internet for analysis. She brought up the topic initially, when she asked me what my ascendant was. I will ask her some questions though, just to see what's her level of understanding astrology.

[Antares5]

My God, man, not when there's information to disseminate!

Haha, ok I appreciate the honesty, but you guys can talk a lot. I am sometimes afraid to ask her a question when it's my turn to talk, knowing that I could get a 5000 word scientific article for an answer.

[Antares5]

Well, she does have her Moon closely opposite your Sun. She may want to appear supportive of you, make you feel important, cared, and she wants to let you know that she trusts you and you can trust her in return. In fact (aha!) as a Capricorn Moon, maybe she thinks that sharing her personal life is an important sign of hers, a no-brainer (to her) that she trusts you very much?

This could be true. She does seem very devoted. Probably because of the Sun-Moon interaspect. I expected her emotional responses to be more guarded, like mine (Aries Moon), considering her Capricorn moon. But she is expressing them way more freely than I do. Are you guys usually that open? Or maybe it's just because of the Sun-Moon.

Antares, I just noticed something positive. Jupiter will soon transit your Venus-Uranus and her Venus. Here are the approximate dates of the transits:

t.Jupiter sesquisquare (135º) your Venus June 4 to August 17
t.Jupiter semisquare (45º) your Uranus June 21 to July 30
t.Jupiter semisquare (45º) her Venus June 9 to August 11

Hey, I almost missed that. Thank you very much Scales for pointing it out. Good observation. I was only looking at the Jupiter transit to my Sun and her Moon, but I forgot about the 45 and 135 degree aspects.

[TheScales_BothWays]

Are you guys usually that open? Or maybe it's just because of the Sun-Moon.

Well, the Sun-Moon aspect definitely has its part in this, but I also agree with Jim that it's her Virgo Sun (Mercury luminary). I have my Moon squared partile by Mercury. I like sharing information too, even about myself. In fact I feel much livelier when I'm sharing information.

From observation, I notice Cap Moons are more open than Cap Suns, but both don't hesitate much to open up to people who fascinate them, (your Uranus to her Venus is more than enough for fascination), those who capture their attention, those who they can emotionally relate too (Moon interaspects! Her Moon to your Sun?) and/or to people whom they have good feelings with. (As a Moon person to a number of guys' Suns, I do feel lots of good feelings about them. There's also a good amount of respect and admiration sometimes.)

Hey, I almost missed that. Thank you very much Scales for pointing it out. Good observation. I was only looking at the Jupiter transit to my Sun and her Moon, but I forgot about the 45 and 135 degree aspects.

Ain't mention it.

[Arena]

Sometimes I even think that she is afraid of me, judging by the way she is looking at me. It's almost like she is switching between happy and fearfull in an instant.

It is probably because she is. She is fearful. People have sometimes just been through difficult experiences and sometimes it is connected to love or supposed love. Some people therefore will have conflicting feelings and reactions towards love, it may even trigger a deep fear or bring them back to difficult feelings/memories.

I don't get it. Why would you act like that if everything is fine?

You don't. It's that simple. You do not act like that if everything is fine. There is something there that you don't know. It is an experience that she has and she might not be able to share it with you at this time.

[Antares5]

It is probably because she is. She is fearful. People have sometimes just been through difficult experiences and sometimes it is connected to love or supposed love. Some people therefore will have conflicting feelings and reactions towards love, it may even trigger a deep fear or bring them back to difficult feelings/memories.

So what's the best course of action in this situation? Just letting time do it's thing and waiting until she gets to know me better?

[Arena]

I don't know what exactly she is dealing with. But getting to know her better and show her that you are there for her (whether it is as a friend or a boyfriend) and show her that she can trust you is a start. When she will feel that she can totally trust you she might share with you what is going on in her mind and with her emotions/behaviour. But you have to be aware that she may not connect her own dots. She may not be consciously aware that something from her past is impacting her behaviour now. Some people take years and years to figure that out.

[Antares5]

I don't know what exactly she is dealing with. But getting to know her better and show her that you are there for her (whether it is as a friend or a boyfriend) and show her that she can trust you is a start. When she will feel that she can totally trust you she might share with you what is going on in her mind and with her emotions/behaviour. But you have to be aware that she may not connect her own dots. She may not be consciously aware that something from her past is impacting her behaviour now. Some people take years and years to figure that out.

I think you're right. Thanks.

[Antares5]

Quick update :

Relationship is over. So much for her. Was fun while it lasted.