The PSN - New progression system to test

[Jim Eshelman]

(Originally posted 4/28/2017, 11:12 AM)

I have a new toy for any of you to explore if you want. I haven't tested it myself - it may be total fiction. I've been thinking about it for years, and today worked up the methodology for calculating it. I wanted to at least write down the math so I can copy it to Solar Fire at home, so thought I would share it.

So, I repeat: I am not saying this works. I'm saying it's the coolest idea of what might work that I've ever tried.

The method for approximating it is simple: In Solar Fire, set your "Rate For User Progs" to 0.003430114. It will then need minor tweaking.

The theory is this: The PSSR angles are essentially continuous from the moment of your birth onward for the rest of your life. Each new SSR picks up with the angles exactly flowing forward from the last SSR. (That's the basis of how the PSSR is calculated.)

Now, each SSR only lasts a year; its planets disappear after that time. The angles keep flowing, so their contacts with transiting and natal planets are more or less indifferent to whether the SSR exists or not. (If this isn't immediately obvious, think it through from the way PSSRs are calculated.)

But what if... what if this stream of uninterrupted angles actually flows forth not just from each individual SSR, but from your natal chart? You would have a progression rate of roughly 1.26 days per year of life - flowing continuously. This puts another ring of progressed planets into the stew.

Calculating the Right Rate
A Sidereal Year is given by astronomers as 365.25636 days.

The PSSR is based on the overage of 1.25636 beyond the 365-day calendar year. This is 1.25636 Sidereal Days, which are 23:56:04 long in civil time, so this equates to 1.25287 civil days. This distributes across a Sidereal year, which is 365.25636 days long. Using numbers with a lot more decimal points, I got the ratio as 0.0034301142203677 and, experimenting in Solar Fire, found that the level of precision that works adequately is 0.003430114. (This means 0.003430114 years per year, in case you're wondering.)

In Solar Fire, under Current Settings, go to the Progs/Dirs tab and put 0.003430114 in the "Rate for User Progs." Click OK, then save your settings (Ctrl+S or Preferences | Save Settings). You're now ready to go.

[Jim Eshelman]

In testing the system (since we're using a crude tool), there is an extra step because the "mean vs. apparent" issue I mentioned under a PSSR thread this morning must be considered.

As this, ultimately, is a lifelong PSSR, we expect it to run at the apparent solar rate, not a mean rate. These will line up the minute of your SSR, but the angles can vary considerably in between. (This, of course, assumes we're right that the apparent rate calculation is correct for the PSSR. Perhaps that should be reexamined.)

I suggest, then, the following: Test this new technique mostly ignoring the angles (look at them out of the corner of your eye), primarily to see if the progressed and progressed-to-natal planet aspects are as good as you'd expect from, say, Secondary Progressions. Apply a comparable standard. Also transits to progressed luminaries.

If that much testing blows our minds, we can work on refinement. If it doesn't, then I'm sure we don't need another wonky progression system that may or may not work <g>.

[Jim Eshelman]

As with pets, I'm not going to name this one until I decide if we're keeping it

EDIT LATER: Unless we think of something better, and wanting the name to suggest the association with the PSSR (Progressed Sidereal Solar Return), I am currently going to call this the Progressed Sidereal Natus (PSN). I know that sounds a little presumptive since there are other ways to progress a natal chart but, after all, there are also other ways to progress the SSR.

[Jim Eshelman]

OK, now to actually look at results...

Graduated High School, left home next day, grandfather died a week later
p Sun conj r Saturn +44'
p Moon op. r Jupiter-Uranus partile, sq. p. Neptune 36'

Wedding
(If the mean/apparent displacement isn't much, my Venus was exactly on MC; but it would have been there in the PSSR regardless, ibn that case.)
partile Moon-Mars conj., sq. r. Saturn [quite bizarre!]
t. Venus conj. p. Moon 0°58', sq. p. Sun 0°15'

Left wife, left home state, 1st airplane trip, relocated to California
(The separating aspects - plus sign on orb - show the economic and other problems that led to our decision to separate.)
p. Sun conj. p. Saturn +0°18'
p. Mars r. Saturn +0°44'
p. Moon tr. p. Mercury +0°15'

Ambushed by GL at Sidereal School, public accusations, emerged triumphant, went home with Anna-Kria and began our decades-long relationship
p. Sun conj. p. Saturn +0°44'
(A lot of important aspects to the natal, but nothing else here.)

Met my spiritual teacher &c.
p. Mercury sq. p. Jupiter -0°31'
p. Venus conj. r Venus -0°32', sq. r Pluto -0°45'
p Mars sq. p Saturn +0°23'

Transformational instant, Logos, turning point
Nothing. (Major other transits, but nothing here.)

Inaugurated organization that is my biggest achievement'
p. Sun tr. p. Jupiter -0°09' [the Sun exactly squares local Asc]
p. Moon sq. r. Jupiter +0°20', r. Uranus +0°37', p. Uranus +0°31'

Climactic spiritual event
[(Depending on mean vs. apparent variance, r. Sun maybe on MC)
p. Mars sq. r. Venus -0°42', op. r. Pluto 0°51'

Spiritual teacher died, I inherited the lineage
This is arguably the most important example yet, because it puts a special focus on the progressed planets and their relationship to the PSSR angles. There are two parts to this event: The woman who had been my guru for almost a quarter century, with whom I had worked closely and cared about, died; and, as a consequence of that and by her designation, I becae the formal head of the lineage.
1. p Sun conjoins p Asc
2. t Saturn conj. p Moon 0°31'
There are other subtleties, but these are the main features.

Formal enthronement four months later
p Moon sq. r Sun -0°54'
p Venus conj. p Saturn -0°59' [trine p Moon exactly]
t Pluto conj. p Sun 0°30'

Long-term lover/partner health crisis, family hijacked her across country without notice
p. Venus conj. p. Saturn -0°27'
-- t Sun sq. Venus-Saturn partile, from exactly on MC
p. Moon-Pluto conj. 0°05'
p. Moon-Neptune sextile 0°00'

Her chart for the same day, nearly dead, relocated against her will or consent to never return to the place she'd selected for her life
*t. Saturn-Neptune across horizon, if angles are right; but this would be true of the PSSR anyway)
p. Venus-Pluto sq. -0°04'
p. Mars conj. r. Sun +0°23'
t. Neptune sq. p. Sun +0°55' [on PSSR angles?]
t. Mars op. p Moon +1°03'

Back to me... organizational betrayal by a trusted deputy
p-. Neptune sq. r Jupiter 0°03'
p Venus-Saturn conj. 0°07'

Began relationship with Marion
(She recently told those at a party, "This was supposed to be a one-night stand, but it didn't work out that way." Pluto was transiting Moon anyway, and this was exactly on PSSR angles - but look at the aspects that joined them.)
p Sun sq r Moon -0°52'
t. Pluto conj p,. Sun 0°28'
p Venus-Saturn conj. 0°48'

Her progressions for the same event
(Her p Venus is 0°02' from square my Sun, her p Sun conj my Jupiter-Uranus within minutes, her p Mars minutes from my Asc. That aside...)
t. Uranus op. p. Uranus 0°31' exactly on PSSR horizon
t. Venus conj. p Sun 0°04'

[Jim Eshelman]

I have to say.... some of these hits are remarkable. This little technique may get a name yet. It isn't often that I get this kind of results on first impression of a new technique.

I invite/encourage all of you to try it. I'll also look at some famous charts. But first...

[Jim Eshelman]

First wife's chart for marriage
First off, if the angles are right, progressed Venus is exactly on EP and natal Moon exactly on MC. Her p Jupiter is minutes from my Asc her p Mars 31' from conjunct my Moon, her p Mercury conjunct my Venus to the minute!
p Moon op. r Neptune 0°12'

Her chart for when I left
(A Venus-Uranus square fell on the PSSR angles. At the exact hour, Moon joined it to make a Moon-Venus-Uranus T. But this would have appeared in the PSSR anyway. Her p Sun was exactly on my natal Venus-Pluto.)
p Mercury conj. r. Asc

[Jim Eshelman]

William McKinley murdered
t. Saturn exactly on Dsc, which it would have been with the PSSR anyway... but it was also 0°03' from square p. Moon!

Robert Kennedy murder
There are all sorts of things that can be taken both ways - and he had a two-pronged evening - but one thing is completely clear and distinctive to this technique:
t Saturn sq p Sun 0°23'
(Saturn wasn't transiting anything else. It seemed inactive but for this dead-on transit.)

Richard Speck committed his murders
p Sun sq r Mars +0°03'
-- t Jupiter op p Sun -0°14'
-- t Jupiter sq r Mars 0°11'
p Mercury tr r Saturn +0°34', tr p M -0°34' [exact midpoint]

Richard Nixon resignation
(Nothing exciting, but what's there is accurate enough.)
p Mars tr r Pluto 0°03'
p Mercury sex p Uranus 0°01'
-- p Mercury-Sun conj 0°22'
-- p. Sun-Uranus sex 0°23'

Neil Armstrong for Moon Landing
Transiting Jupiter and Uranus were conjoined at 6°26' and 6°23' Virgo. These touched nothing in Armstrong's chart, though they dominated the mundane charts. With this new progression system, his progressed Su was 5°31' Virgo, partile conjunct the Jupiter-Uranus conjunction.

John Kennedy murder
p Mars 5°40' Gemini
natal MC for Dallas 6°23' Gemini

r Neptune 9°05' Cancer
p Sun 9°51' Cancer
p Saturn 10°30' Cancer
p Neptune 10°58' Cancer

p Mercury sq r Mars 0°02'


King Edward VIII abdicated
Besides a number of small, juicy Pluto contacts...
p Sun-Uranus sq. 0°11', r. Uranus 0°23'
p Mercury-Mars sq. 0°32'
p Venus-Uranus trine 0°16', r. Uranus 0°28'

Charles Whitman's murders
p Pluto conj r Pluto 0°45'
t Neptune sq p Moon 0°40'
p Mercury-Mars sq. 0°07' (+ t Venus)
p Mars conj r Mercury 0°52'

Abraham Lincoln murdered
(An exact Mars-Neptune transiting square fell exactly on his angles; but this would have occurred in the PSSR anyway.)
p Moon-Mars sextile 0°09'
(Besides this minor factor, and the exceptional angularities, there is nothing going on with these progressions.)

[Jim Eshelman]

Very interesting, but not sure I completely understand. Are you using a different PSSR rate than Fagan used, or, are you saying you have figured out a way for us to implement Fagan’s PSSR rate with SF?

A little of both... let me take another crack at explaining. The simple version is: I'm applying the same PSSR rate to the birth chart for the whole life.

We usually the treat the PSSR as beginning with a new solar return. The SQ MC begins at the SSR, loops the zodiac once, and then ends when the next SSR starts. There's a gap.

But the PSSR is actually continuous for the whole life (if you count just its angles). There is never a gap in the angles. The whole idea of the PSSR is that its angles start with (say) the 2016 SSR and loop the zodiac 1 1/4 times and end up exactly where the 2017 SSR will pick up. If you just look at the angles, it looks like the PSSR is one uninterrupted system that starts at birth and moves the angles 360° + 92° = 452°/year throughout life.

None of this is new. It's just different than how we're used to thinking about it. What is new is that I thought, "But what about the planets? Did the PSSR planets from the birth char (our first SSR from age 0) ever stop progressing?" I now think they did not - that the birth chart has been progressing at the PSSR rate of roughly 1.26 days/year for our entire lives.

It was a lark... and the lark paid off.

Then, Steve, here's something that will tickle you: It looks like Fagan and Firebrace had the potential for this idea in their minds and never followed up on it. I found the following last night in the Primer in the PSSR chapter:

The sidereal time of a [solar] return thus progresses during the year and finally gives the [sidereal] time of the next solar return. Thus, there is a continuous progression of the angles of the return from birth to death at an approximate rate of five minutes a day.

So, to answer your specific question, I'm using exactly the same rate Fagan used for the PSSR, but I'm applying - for the whole life - to the natal chart.

What won't be exactly the same is something you might only notice in the angles. You can't yet trust the angles in what I've given above, only the planets. (1) Because I'm using an average rate, there may be small errors, because every SSR year is slightly longer or shorter. I think this distorts it less than 1° on the angles, usually no more than a few minutes. (2) Fagan based the PSSR on the apparent solar rate, not the mean. If this is correct, then the angles could be way off in this calculation method, as much as 8-10° off. That's not because I'm changing rate, it's because of the familiar Solar Fire problem that it can't do apparent rate progressions. [That's a separate question. I think we need to reassess whether the PSSR moves at apparent or mean rate.]

[Jim Eshelman]

Steve, to experiment, after customizing the user-selected progression rate, start with your birth chart for whatever location you want to test. Then launch my special triwheel I created for you, click the Charts button, and switch the middle wheel to be "User Progressions." You now have your natal on the inmost ring, then the PSN (new system) planets, then transits, and you can zip forward and backward through different dates you want to check.

I notice, for example, that transiting Saturn conjoined your progressed Sun January 22 to February 14, being exact on February 2. Does that make sense?

[Jim Eshelman]

Very interesting, I now have a better understanding where you are coming from, will research with my life progressing my natal planets with this PSSR rate on a continuous basis for entire life.

Jim wrote:

I notice, for example, that transiting Saturn conjoined your progressed Sun January 22 to February 14, being exact on February 2. Does that make sense?

Makes perfect sense! This was the exact time for probably my worst health issues in my entire life.

[Jim Eshelman]

I love those words "the exact time." (I hate the rest of the sentence, but I love those words.) And your health issue was related to the Sun, yes?

If you have a few more you'd like me to spot check while you're gearing up, let me know. For comparison, at noon today your PSN Sun is 0°04' Sagittarius, Moon 17°43' Capricorn. For Albertville, the MC (which is an approximate value, but let's you check if you're using Solar Fire correctly) is 16°38' Capricorn, Ascendant 5°43' Taurus.

Progressed Sun 0°04' Sagittarius is opposite progressed Uranus at 0°08' Gemini. Read this like a Secondary Progression (it's the same thing, but 26% faster). Right this hour, transiting Moon is 0° Gemini, so you should be feeling it You also have progressed Mercury 20°16' Scorpio trine your natal Pluto within 0°02', and partile trine progressed Pluto. If this system proves itself, today could be the day that an astounding new personal intellectual adventure begins. (I'm exalting the "excitement" aspects of your chart, not my unproven new idea <g>.)

[Jim Eshelman]

Aleister Crowley finished receiving dictation of The Book of the Law, which formed the foundation of his life's work and his whole life thereafter.

p Moon tr. p Sun -0°05'
p Moon sq. r Venus +0°27'
(If the birthtime used is correct, the PSSR already had t Pluto on Asc.)

Not much here. What is here is appropriate, but unexciting.

[Jim Eshelman]

Jim asked:

And your health issue was related to the Sun, yes?

Exactly! My vitality with my health issues was almost completely drained with t. Saturn on this PSN Sun. I had difficulty getting out of bed walking with enough energy to other parts of the house.

[Jim Eshelman]

Notice that this thread was started late morning, April 28. I had an Ennead set up April 27, just before sunrise, with the following:

0°14' Aries t Uranus (0°15' below Asc)
0°38' Aries Asc
0°46' Aries t Mercury (0°23' below Asc)

Mercury-Uranus conj. 0°32' in eclipto, 0°08' in mundo

Add:
Sun 7°05' before Asc
Pluto 6°28' before MC
Sun-Pluto sq. 0°45'

Jupiter 4°04' after Dsc

[Jim Eshelman]

Here is a problem with this calculation approach: Every SSR year is of slightly different length, and while the rate I provided is an accurate number, and would be perfectly sound if everything always flowed at the same rate, it can get slightly off for a given year. It is easy to check how much, though, by doing a once-a-year calculation: Calculate the PSN to the moment of your Solar Return and see how much they differ.

Your SSR occurred September 20, 2016, 3:32:51 AM CDT in Albertville with MC 19°10' Aries. Calculating your PSN to that exact moment gives MC 17°30' Aries (which is about the largest discrepancy I've seen, but less than 2°). That means that your PSN calculations for this year of your life are running about 1°40' too slow. Write that down somewhere, so when you check the PSN throughout the rest of the birthday year you know that you need to add about a degree and a half.

You can get the angles more exactly by running them from your SSR (i.e., a mean rate PSSR). For 8:03:53 this morning, that gives MC 23°06' Capricorn instead of the 21°26' Capricorn you and I both get originally. So, again, it shows a 1°40' slip.

I want to emphasize that you have set up and used the system correctly. The flaw is in the calculation method, since every SSR starts it just a little off the average. What I've just shown you is how to know how much it's off this year so you can experiment freely.

Also, for convenience in checking, this works great with my custom Triwheel that you like. Just pull up a triwheel on your natal, click the Charts button, and set the middle ring to User Progressed. Instant PSN, and you can slide it forward or backward to different dates.

[Jim Eshelman]

Margaret Edens, born August 17, 1926, 10:20 AM, Long Beach, CA. Killed when a train struck her car June 12, 1950, 7:27 AM, Fullerton, CA.

p Mercury sex. r Saturn +25'
p Veneu sq r Moon -49'
p Mars sq. p Jupiter -13'

Not a very impressive example, given the strength of that Moon-Venus progression. However, as it would in her PSSR, there was also t Uranus conj. p MC partile.

[Jim Eshelman]

John Kennedy, born May 29,1917, 3:00 PM, Brookline, MA. Murdered November 22, 1963, 12:30 PM, Dallas, TX.

p Uranus sq. r Jupiter 34' [not sure it's that important, given its duration]
p Saturn conj. p Neptune 28' [ditto]
p Sun conj. p Saturn -39'

Bingo!

[Jim Eshelman]

Matthew Quellas, vorn August 19, 1941, 7:35 PM, Painesville, OH, had an auto accident that redirected and reouted his life February 3, 1968, 11:045 AM CST, 37N07, 89W12.

This one is quite astounding! This would have been the first event Matthew tested - it always came through for him - and he'd have been a convert on the spot, I suspect.

p Mercury op. p Mars 16'
p Mars conj. r Mars 28'
p Mercury op r Mars 44'
p Mars sq. r Moon 35'
p Mercury sq. r Moon 19'
-----------------------------
p Sun tr. p Saturn 20'
t Uranus conj. p Sun 20'
p Sun conj. r Venus 03'
p Saturn tr. r Venus 23'
p Sun tr. r Saturn 38'
----------------------------

As would have been true in his (mean) PSSR, this also had Mercury exactly on MC and Jupiter near IC. Transiting Pluto squared Ascendant.

[Jim Eshelman]

Mercel Cerdan was born July 22, 1916, 9:00 PM BST, Sidi-Bel-Abbes, Algeria. He died in a plane crash October 27, 1949, in the Azores. (I have 12:00 noon. I don't recall if that means I had no time, or that it was noon. For present purposes, it doesn't matter.) - The aspects are quite excellent except for the Moon aspect at the end.

p Mars sq. p Saturn 32'
p Sun tr. r Moon 01'
p Neptune sq. r Jupiter 08' [triggered by transiting Sun]
p Pluto sex. r Jupiter 36' [probably minor]
p Moon op. p Jupiter 39'

Angles are interesting. The progressed Sun square to natal Moon occurs with Moon on PSN Descendant. Transiting Pluto is on MC. Both of these (excluding only the progressed Sun) would also be present in the mean rate PSSR, though.

I think he was travelling for pleasure BTW. Therefore, an interesting (I think minor) factor is t Jupiter op. p Venus 0°05'.

[Jim Eshelman]

Carl Erskine was born December 13, 1926, 10:00 AM CST, Anderson, IN. He pitched the first televised no-hitter ever in a game ending May 12, 1956, 4:11 PM EDT Brooklyn, NY.

p Mars tr. p Pluto 07'
p Jupiter sq. r Mercury 25' [but joined by t Saturn]
p Neptune tr. r Venus 02' [decades-long, but exceedingly close in '56]

Some transits of great interest:
t Uranus op. p Sun 01'
t Neptune sq. p Sun 25'
t. Mars op. p Moon 35'

Of great interest is the angularity (which would have been identical for the mean rate PSSR). Transiting Sun, Mars, and Uranus are each on an angle, making a Sun-Mars square in RA (IC to EP) and a Sun-Uranus square in PV IIC to Dsc) - entirely separarate from transiting Uranus' opposition to PSN progressed Sun (which was on Asc) within 0°01'.

[Jim Eshelman]

A police officer was born July 5, 1936, 10:45 AM EST, Washington, DC. He was killed in the line of duty on May 2, 1963, 1:00 AM EST, Washington, DC. (The next example will be his wife's chart. Having both makes this a particularly interesting set of charts for testing technique.)

The first striking thing I notice - that would not appear in any other known technique before PSN - is the following:

21°26' Can t Mars
21°38' Can p Sun

The remainder is:
p Jupiter sq. r Neptune 10'
t Uranus conj. p Mercury 17' [exactly on IC]

The angles had a strange Mercury focus but also surprise. p Asc conjoins natal Mercury, p IC conjoins the conjunction of transiting Uranus and progressed Mercury.

[Jim Eshelman]

His wife was born July 7, 1938, 11:34 AM, Washington, DC. She learned about the shooting not long after it occurred, so we'll use the same event data. And look at this coincidence that doesn't occur in any other system:

20°42' Can t Sun
21°25' Can t Mars

They both had PSN progressed Sun in the same degree, and it was the degree of transiting Mars.

(She had a lot of other things in her chart showing that the impact on her was different from her husband, including t Saturn op. r Veus27'; but I'm here listing only things that are in the PSN.)

The angles (which, of course, are the same as the mean PSSR) put t Pluto conj p Mercury (1°05') conjunct quotidian MC.

[Jim Eshelman]

Ralph Edwards was born June 13 1913, 0:13 AM MST, Merino, CO. His home burned (on live TV IIRC) in a large Malibu fire, specifically December 26, 1956, 3:00 AM, Malibu, CA.

p Mars tr. p Uranus 23' [touched also by t Uranus]
p Venus conj. p Pluto 22'

For a "home" connection, I'm intrigued that progressed Moon conjoined his natal Moon within 40'.

Progressed Sun is on MC (something that would not appear in the PSSR). I'm sure this isn't the way he wanted to get some extra publicity and celebrity.

[SteveS]

Jim, below is my PSN for a somewhat rare occurrence that happened to me last evening, timed to the minute of manifestation. This incident was an unexpected phone call I received involving possible upsetting future situations which may involve me, or not, and, the content of this intently serious conversation was of a discovery nature, but somewhat confusing. This phone call was from a well respected associate I’ve known for 38 years, and the last timed I talked to this person was 6-7 years ago. Certain parts of this conversation angered me but not toward the person communicating to me, but to possible situations I may or not have to deal with in the next few months.

Note the triple Paran of Sun-Mars-Uranus, a very rare occurrence. But, if I understand your PSN method, due to my age, I must advance the angles of this chart app. 1,40 degrees, correct?

[Jim Eshelman]

Wow, quite an example. - Sorry to hear about the hassle, of course; but it is indeed a good example. (None of the other quotidians showed anything?)

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

(None of the other quotidians showed anything?)

Exactly Jim, you have indeed discovered a very important new progressed system. I am still a little confused about how to view/understand the correct angles. Am I suppose to advance and adjust the angles in the above Q chart by app 1,40 degrees at my age?

[Jim Eshelman]

I am still a little confused about how to view/understand the correct angles. Am I suppose to advance and adjust the angles in the above Q chart by app 1,40 degrees at my age?

I understand the confusion because there isn't an easy, straightforward way of calculating it. Also, at first I thought that this "averaging" way of calculating it was only going to be off by 1-2°, but I've now seen some examples where it appears to be off more than that, in one case as much as 5°. It is complicated further because one of the ways I have used it in Solar Fire seems to have a program bug, since I calculate the same thing two ways and get unrelated answers... still trying to figure that out.

The confusion is I our not having the right tools... which has always been the case with the PSSR.

Here is one sure thing I can say: The angles will be PRECISELY those for your PSSR, if the PSSR is calculated by mean rate instead of apparent rate. This is really the definition of the whole thing: The Progressed Sidereal Natal (PSN) is exactly the Progressed Sidereal Solar Return (PSSR), run uninterruptedly through your whole life, applied to the natal instead of your current SSR. The way to see if the "averaging" from birth is a little off is to calculate for the PSSR and know that these are the real angles.

The technique I recommended to "true" these to each other is to calculate the PSN to the moment of your SSR. Your current SSR MC is 19°10' Aries (RA MC 41°40'). Calculating your PSN for September 20, 2016, 3:32:51 AM CDT, I get MC 17°30' Aries (RAMC 39°04').

Simple way to look at it: The calculated MC is 1°40' earlier than it should be, so add 1°40' to the MC throughout the year. This, though, is not really a consistent figure, because the MC doesn't advance in longitude at the same rate it does in RA, and it's the RA figure we really need; but, for most work, it's close enough. The more complete way to look at it: The RA of the MC, in the sample above, is 2°36' early, and that's what would stay most consistent throughout the year. (There are still some other complication, but no big ones.)

(I did these examples for Albertville for convenience. Now moving to Springville.)

[Read the following slowly, with real examples in front of you. It is numerically dense and not easy to follow.]

So... let's apply this to May 18, 2017, 7 PM, Springville, AL. Fastest way to get angles is to run the system on your SSR. It gives MC 12°44' Aquarius, Asc 1°32' Gemini. Most importantly (for the fine points) is that RA of MC (from the Reports button) is 339°23'.

If I calculate the same to your natal chart, I get what you got - slightly earlier angles. We can approximate the right answer by adding the 1°40' difference in longitude, and we get a pretty close answer - gives an MC of 12°36', which is only a few minutes different from what I calculate from the SSR. (The calculation from the SSR is what we want.) Notice that Asc 1°32' Gemini, MC 12°44' Aquarius, is still close to the Sun, Mars, and Uranus, just not as to-the-minute precise as in the chart you gave above,

Here's the real check, though: The RA MC difference between your SSR and the PSN to the moment of your SSR was 2°36'. I think this should be a stable RA difference throughout the year. Is it? The RAMC of the PSN-from-natal to last night is 336°47', and the RAMC of PSN/PSSR-from-SSR is 339°23', or 2°36' later, exact to the minute as it should be.

So... this tells me that the "ST of the SSR, minus ST of PSN for the moment of the SSR" (difference in RA MC) gives a stable value throughout the current SSR year.

Practical Take-Away #1" If you want to confirm the exact angles, run them from the SSR. This is what the angles run from the natal should be.

Practical Take-Away #2: MC difference (SSR MC, minus MC of PSN calculated for moment of SSR) is a good approximation throughout the year, though the difference is RA of MC is the better way to check, rather than difference in longitude of MC.

Practical Take-Away #3: This would be soooooooooooooo much easier with the right software tools!

[SteveS]

Thanks Jim, the phone call I received was so important to me, it makes me believe the triple paran of Sun-Mars-Uranus is reflecting precise true angles. But, if I understand with the known different ways with Sidereal Astrology for progressing angles, the above angles cannot be true, correct?

[Jim Eshelman]

Unless I have totally misconstrued the nature of the technique, the average ones you calculated cannot be true. However, the more carefully calculated ones still have the planets within 2°, which is what we've seen works in mundane quotidians.

[Jim Eshelman]

Coincidentally, Marion had an important phone call last night at 6:30 PM to 7:00 PM (but two hours away in time zone) that left her relieved and rejuvenated after a few days of feeling physically down. Taken by itself, this example would also (like yours) have me wondering if the pure mean rate (unmodified PSN calculated for the birth chart) was correct, which seems bizarre.

If I go the extra steps to get the angles just right, we get MC 24°56' Virgo, Asc 6°16' Sagittarius. Sure, the MC is partile square transiting Pluto, and that's fine enough for a psychological transformation of her point of view that shifted things.

But the pure "average" rate - just applying the PSN rate to her local natal, without trying to correct it - gives MC 19°57' Virgo, conjunct t Jupiter at 18°56' Virgo, opposite Venus at 18°22' Pisces. This looks so much more like the psychological relief, phone call with a close friend, etc. that I watched happening. Is it (like your example) a coincidence, or is there something I'm missing?

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

However, the more carefully calculated ones still have the planets within 2°, which is what we've seen works in mundane quotidians.

Exactly, I thoroughly understand. The phone call last night has already prompted 2 more phone call to others, discussing what course of plan(s) I should consider as options. Thanks Jim.

[DDonovanKinsolving]

Mr. E., does this procedure accurately create the correct PSN?

1. Calculate the PSSR as usual. Make note of the MC.

Example using JFK: MC is Libra 26:01 at Dallas.

2. Using the prescribed User Progression rate, find the Mean Rate approximation of the PSN.

JFK has MC of Scorpio 01:07 and a Derived Progression Date of July 27, 1917 01:40 UT.

3. Bring up View Chart. Among the buttons on the right side, locate and select Rectify. The Rectify Assist panel appears .

4. You can rectify by date, time, MC or Asc. In the MC box, enter the PSSR MC Libra 26:01 ("26Lib01").

5. Press OK.

6. The corrected PSSR is presented,

7. In tri-wheels, do not show the angles from this chart. Because of precession, this Asc will differ from that of the PSSR.

With your experience, does this give correct results? I only came across this thread yesterday, so there may be some nuance I skipped over.

-Derek

[DDonovanKinsolving]

Notice this arrangement:

PSSR ASC: CAP 08:00
PNR SUN: CAN 09:50
PNR SAT: CAN10:29
PNR NEP: CAN 10:58

This is more significant than the Mean PSSR Asc of about CAP 14°.

[DDonovanKinsolving]

Mr. E., has your spreadsheet been migrated yet, that calculates both the PSSR and SQ?

-Derek

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Jim's PSSR spreadsheet.

One of the first things migrated. We really tried to get everything, even on the compressed schedule. Sometimes Dani or I can retrieve things that went poof before we could get to them, but that's a VERY long shot. If you are missing something, it's worth asking, but unlikely and getting more and more unlikely as time goes on.

BTW, try the new search function. It's amazing and fast.

[Jim Eshelman]

Mr. E., does this procedure accurately create the correct PSN?

I'm on the road this week, often outside of even cell signal range (literally on the road, i.e., road trip and deep forest most of the week). Though I have a computer packed, almost all access to the site will be by the phone, and perhaps infrequent.

So, without sitting down and walking through this myself, I'm going to say: Yes, that looks quite right. In essence you've calculated a PSSR, you've calculated a mean PSN by the estimation rate (as a stand-alone chart), and you've used the Rectify button to get the estimated PSN exactly right. (If the angles match, the chart matches.)

The simple concept is, "What if the PSSR ran non-stop from the birth chart instead of only from the current SSR?" We still IMHO have to settle the question of the mean vs. apparent rate (perhaps you've settled it in your mind but I never really challenged-and-checked Fagan's original assertion, so I find I should check that now... and so far, most of the examples I actually check are better than for mean rate than apparent. But that doesn't amount to nearly enough examples, so I'm far from settled!)

There are some awkwardnesses in your approach IMHO, but I agree that it looks like it actually works

1. Calculate the PSSR as usual. Make note of the MC. ...
2. Using the prescribed User Progression rate, find the Mean Rate approximation of the PSN.

JFK has MC of Scorpio 01:07 and a Derived Progression Date of July 27, 1917 01:40 UT.

The problem I have with this is that it's a lot of work to get back to the derived progression rate, at least with Solar Fire. If I use e.g. the progression tool, the final chart says something like "Progression for November 22, 1963, 12:30 PM CST, Dallas, TX." It doesn't display the derived progression date anywhere I can see. Of course, I could calculate this date without Solar Fire, with a spreadsheet e.g., though that's more work.

3. Bring up View Chart. Among the buttons on the right side, locate and select Rectify. The Rectify Assist panel appears,

4. You can rectify by date, time, MC or Asc. In the MC box, enter the PSSR MC Libra 26:01 ("26Lib01").

5. Press OK.

6. The corrected PSSR is presented,

This works if you've calculated a stand-alone chart, not if you've calculated a progressed chart (where the Rectify button is disabled).

[DDonovanKinsolving]

Thanks, JSAD. I have that spreadsheet, and use it for individual PSSRs. Was just wondering if it survived for other users'sake.

I will try the new search function. Glad to know it's better than before.

-Derek

Jim's PSSR spreadsheet.

One of the first things migrated. We really tried to get everything, even on the compressed schedule. Sometimes Dani or I can retrieve things that went poof before we could get to them, but that's a VERY long shot. If you are missing something, it's worth asking, but unlikely and getting more and more nunlikely as time goes on.

BTW, try the new search function. It's amazing and fast.

[Jim Eshelman]

I knew the new Search function was better, but hadn't seen how many loops I could send it through. It does have a great deal of the Google-like flexibility, including the ability to filter out content with the minus sign. For example, just using the simple search window (there is a lot more in the advanced search!), if I drop in PSSR I immediately get at the top most posts in this present PSN thread, so, I filter that out (say I don't want anything that mentions PSN) with:

Code: Select all

PSSR -PSN

This still has 110 matches, so, if I'm looking for where the spreadsheet is, I might guess:

Code: Select all

PSSR -PSN Excel

This brings it down to 10 matches and I find it in a couple of seconds.

Quotes don't seem operative, though. The following three variations produce the same list of 161 matches (all looking for the coexistence of the two words):

"Cyril Fagan"
Cyril Fagan
"Fagan Cyril"

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

If you take the ST of your next Solar Return and subtract the ST of your current SR, add 24 and divide by 24.00093, and plug that in as the progression rate to progress your Solar Return in Solar Fire, what kind of chart do you get?

Did you all know Solar FIre holds on the last few progression rates you used and you can pick one when you're actually calculating a chart, so if you forgot to write one down and didn't save the calculations, you can often retrieve it that way? The choices last even if you told Solar Fire to save the current settings on closure.

[DDonovanKinsolving]

Though I have a computer packed, almost allaccess to the site have to settle the question of the mean vs. apparent rate (perhaps you've settled it in your mind but I never really challenged-and-checked Fagan's original assertion, so I find I should check that now... and so far, most of the examples I actually check are better than for mean rate than apparent. But that doesn't amount to nearly enough examples, so I'm far from settled!)

I'm with you on that! No, I haven't decided on apparent vs. mean. It bugs me immensely that some methods (as usually taught) are one or the other.

There are some awkwardnesses in your approach IMHO, but I agree that it looks like it actually works

What's NOT awkward about the PSSR?

The problem I have with this is that it's a lot of work to get back to the derived progression rate, at least with Solar Fire. If I use e.g. the progression tool, the final chart says something like "Progression for November 22, 1963, 12:30 PM CST, Dallas, TX." It doesn't display the derived progression date anywhere I can see. Of course, I could calculate this date without Solar Fire, with a spreadsheet e.g., though that's more work.

Yes, I saw this issue, and the next about the disabled button too. As for the extra work with a spreadsheet, I'm working on it.

-Derek

[Jim Eshelman]

If you take the ST of your next Solar Return and subtract the ST of your current SR, add 24 and divide by 24.00093, and plug that in as the progression rate to progress your Solar Return in Solar Fire, what kind of chart do you get?

Without trying it, I think it is this: I think SF rate is per year, and you want the result in terms of days. So (just thinking it through, not trying anything) you'd have to take this rate and divide it by the (mean or actual - experiment to see if the mean is sufficiently accurate) number of days in a Sidereal year (or in your Sidereal year) and then you'd have the right rate.

Did you all know Solar FIre holds on the last few progression rates you used and you can pick one when you're actually calculating a chart, so if you forgot to write one down and didn't save the calculations, you can often retrieve it that way?

Did not know, and that might get me to experiment with more than one at a time

[Jim Eshelman]

There are some awkwardnesses in your approach IMHO, but I agree that it looks like it actually works

What's NOT awkward about the PSSR?

It would be quite cool if it turned out to be that mean rate is best, because it makes calculation within a tiny range of error a snap. (My ideal would be to find a method that never required you to calculate the next SSR. That, more than any other thing, has me not using the PSSR when I could.) That would still leave up to 2-3° error at the end of the birthday year in more extreme cases.

But, of course, one needs not to prejudice one's reading of the examples by wishing for a method that is easy to calculate LOL.

As for the extra work with a spreadsheet, I'm working on it.

Cool. I did a crude one between the last two posts. Excel does a fabulous job of calculating the time between two dates and times (don't have to go to JD numbers), so subtracting event date/time from birth date/time, times a constant, added to the birth date/time gives the answer. The challenge is finding the right constant, and thinking it through without experimentation hasn't given quite the right answer. I used 0.003430114 but I think there's a factor I'm not considering, and it's too hard to tweak on the road.

[DDonovanKinsolving]

Did you know ... {mangled the edit} ... to write one down and didn't save the calculations, you can often retrieve it that way?

I knew that from my experience with working through my Fractal Progression essay. Beware! If you put in a wrong value, or decide you no longer want one, you can't get rid of it. Also, there is no way to label the values with easy names to keep track of them. Personally, I think the user-defined progression module needs a deep revamping.

[Jim Eshelman]

As for the extra work with a spreadsheet, I'm working on it.

Cool. I did a crude one between the last two posts. Excel does a fabulous job of calculating the time between two dates and times (don't have to go to JD numbers), so subtracting event date/time from birth date/time, times a constant, added to the birth date/time gives the answer. The challenge is finding the right constant, and thinking it through without experimentation hasn't given quite the right answer. I used 0.003430114 but I think there's a factor I'm not considering, and it's too hard to tweak on the road.

As, wait, that DOES do it. Calculating that way gives an MC (for 10:10 AM PDT this morning) of 4°21' Capricorn, and using the Solar Fire method gives the same thing to the minute. So yes, that's the spread sheet solution. See below for the look... (In use, of course, one has to make sure that the birth time is entered in the local time zone just to make this easier when you input it as a chart, hence my 2:13 AM, which is the PST equivalent of my 4:13 AM CST birth time.)

PSN example.JPG

[Jim Eshelman]

Personally, I think the user-defined progression module needs a deep revamping.

They could handle it simply enough with User1 through User5. After all, the Tropical crowd they're often uses innumerable rates

[DDonovanKinsolving]

Cool. I did a crude one between the last two posts. Excel does a fabulous job of calculating the time between two dates and times (don't have to go to JD numbers), so subtracting event date/time from birth date/time, times a constant, added to the birth date/time gives the answer.

Modifying your PSSR spreadsheet in this way was my first step, so there was a basis of comparison with SF. I'm not even out of bed yet on this holiday morning, but I'm thinking that if you take the difference in ST between mean and apparent, and apply it to the mean clock time, you'll get the correct equivalent progressed date /time.

[Jim Eshelman]

Cool. I did a crude one between the last two posts. Excel does a fabulous job of calculating the time between two dates and times (don't have to go to JD numbers), so subtracting event date/time from birth date/time, times a constant, added to the birth date/time gives the answer.

Modifying your PSSR spreadsheet in this way was my first step, so there was a basis of comparison with SF. I'm not even out of bed yet on this holiday morning, but I'm thinking that if you take the difference in ST between mean and apparent, and apply it to the mean clock time, you'll get the correct equivalent progressed date /time.

Yes, that would be a nice add-on. I wasn't even thinking of that, but only of how to replicate exactly what the SF technique produces. But it would be useful to get apparent rate in a single calculation, rather than in a replication using page 1 of the spreadsheet. Regrettably, this means adding more numbers to the spreadsheet initially and for each use - I was liking the idea of just put it (and save for your own chart) birth date and time, and then each use is open the spreadsheet, type current date and time, and instantly have the final answer.

So... minimizing the inputs... we'd have to add SSR Sun RA, transiting Sun RA, subtract them, multiply by the 1.25-whatever, compare to an auto-generated MS difference (based on one of two approaches that come to mind), delete ~10 sec/hour from that, and apply to the first (mean) calculated value. This, of course, still leaves the gap of having not adjusted for uneven solar years through life to conform the mean-from-birth to the match-current-SSR.

I really do hope that a few hundred examples confirm that the apparent rate for PSSR is a derelict fiction and, like every other technique resembling it in the armory, it works on mean rate... but que sera sera.

[DDonovanKinsolving]

This, of course, still leaves the gap of having not adjusted for uneven solar years through life to conform the mean-from-birth to the match-current-SSR.

I understand what you're talking about, but the more I thought about it, the more it seemed that these irregularities in the Sidereal Year length would be automatically taken care of once the mean PSN ST was corrected to the PSSR's.
,
For strictly mean calculations... yes, I can see that.

[Jim Eshelman]

Yes, if corrected, that's right. I'm looking for something similar - something where I can just hit the Animate TriWheel link and have the chart for the moment (and in my head think, "And this year the RAMC is running a degree and a quarter fast."

But yes, for precision work on a timed event, if you calculate the PSSR fully and then adjust, you're good.

My biggest interest at the moment doesn't involve the angles at all. I won't to confirm whether this is a full progression system - whether the progressed aspects warrant major attention - whether Moon progressions peak exactly when you'd expect, and transits to the progressed Moon are as startling as to secondary Moon. So far, my favorite occasions for fine-tuning the angles has been one for the day a female friend confronted a bunch of people that had been oppressing her for the last year, "got off" her shadow element on the matter, and came out feeling clean. I noticed the PSN progressed Moon-Saturn conjunction very close, but when I tuned about 10 minutes to get the angles just right, I found it was 000' orb for the hour she made the decision and made the first call.

[Jim Eshelman]

BTW, here are some quick-click ways in Solar Fire to make this adjustment (for inequity of solar year lengths through life) pretty fast.

If you local nativity and your (same location) SSR are calculated (and presuming you have my customized triwheel made for showing off quotidians a your default), do this (which takes WAY less time to do than to describe):

1. Click on your local nativity, pick Dynamic | Animate Triwheel. (This shows your SNQ with transits about the outside and natal on the inside.)

2. Click charts, click on the Middle Wheel, and (just above) pick User Progression. This shows the estimated PSN. (This is my default way of quick checking.) - Note the MC (for myself, I get 4°29' Capricorn at the moment.)

3. To overcome the one calculation factor we were discussing, click Charts, make sure Middle Wheel is still selected (it should be), and, in the top box, click on your SSR instead of your local nativity. After OK, this shows your current estimated (same level of accuracy as the old ASSI method) PSSR, calculated by mean rate. Note the MC (my case for the moment I get 5°58' Capricorn - sweet, my SSR Moon is 5°35; Capricorn).

Click Charts, and put the Middle Wheel back to your local nativity (it should still be set on User Progression rate). Just use the angles your found or (knowing the transits will be a little skewed), adjust the time. Since the estimated PSN was 1°29' early, and this MC moves at about 1°15'/day, bump the time from right now another day and a fifth, or about a day and 5 hours.

Tedious but fast, and useful for slightly tighter quick-checks at the mean rate. (Oh, missed that this puts my progressed Saturn near the angle today and on it tomorrow. But I won't be at home at that time... More interestingly, it puts transiting Mercury on Asc just as I hit the highway.)