Transits to secondary natal planets

[David Stanton]

by SteveS on Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:31 am

Jim,
Fagan wrote in ‘Solunars Handbook’ pertaining to transits when angular in a Return chart:

But all the progressed planets are equally responsive to the effects of transits, often more so than the radicals.

To make sure I am on the same page as you, do you agree with Fagan’s above statement? When we compute a Return chart we should use a tri-wheel function checking not only for angular Natal planets, but also for close angular Natal Progressed planets—Yes?

S

[David Stanton]

by Jim Eshelman on Thu Jun 02, 2011 8:13 am

SteveS wrote:
Fagan wrote in ‘Solunars Handbook’ pertaining to transits when angular in a Return chart:

But all the progressed planets are equally responsive to the effects of transits, often more so than the radicals.

To make sure I am on the same page as you, do you agree with Fagan’s above statement? When we compute a Return chart we should use a tri-wheel function checking not only for angular Natal planets, but also for close angular Natal Progressed planets—Yes?

There are two separate questions here, and they sometimes get confused. One is the uestion of whether progressed planets are "equally responsive to the effects of transits." The other is whether they should be included in the SSR and SLR as a third ring.

I'm not quite sure how you made the leap from the first to the second, but you're hardly the first person to do so.

On the first question - the responsiveness of seciondary progressed planets to transits: I watch these on a day-to-day basis. For the most part, i would generalize that transits to progressed planets are effective, but far less so than transits to natal planets. (In fact, if there are a number of transits to the natal and SSR (which are the most efficacious of astrological indicators), then transits to the progressed may not even be noticed (i.e., may get "lost in all the noise" as weaker signals).

The exception to this, though - and something Fagan emphasized elsewhere - are transits to progressed luminaries. These are in a totally different class than all the other progressed planets. Transits to progressed Moon, in particular, shouldn't be ignored. The Sun is nearly in the same ball park.

Now, let's switch attention to the second question: whether secondary progressed planets should be added as a third ring to the SSR or SLR.

My answer is: No, definitely not. They have nothing to do with the SSR or SLR per se. This diagramming method may give you an opportunity to see ongoing progressed aspects you'd otherwise miss (but why should you miss them? tracking progressed aspects is a separate task). The thing I'm particularly saying is that the angularity of progressed planets in the SSR or SLR is irrelevant. Progressed Venus on an SLR angle won't up the romantic barometer - that would require transiting (i.e., return chart) Venus or natal Venus.

Where progressed planets are relevant is in the Kinetic Solar & Lunar Returns, because those charts are all about the secondary progressions. BTW the KLR (including its demi) seems nearly (not quite) as strong as the SLR. This effect is so strong that, even if we had no other evidence on the matter, this alone would resolve the Q1 vs. Q2 issue on progressed planetary rate, since it is the KLR based on the Q2 that has this striking effect. The timing difference is these is considerable.

[David Stanton]

by Jim Eshelman on Thu Jun 02, 2011 8:46 am

Some examples of the KLR, since it is less well known - I just picked some big dates in my own life in the last few years and ran the charts (I don't think I've run these before). (There were other indications in each case, of course - this is just to talk about the KLR effect.)

My personal spiritual teacher, with whom I had worked for 25 years, died and appointed me her successor (representing a dramatic, permanent shift in my life). The KLR had a transiting Venus-Pluto opposition (3° wide) along the meridian and square natal Moon. The intervening Demi-KLR had transiting Pluto in the exact degree of the Ascendant, again about 4° from opposite Venus near the Descendant. (Pluto remained in partile square to natal Moon.) No progressed planets were implicated in this case.

My best friend (and long-term lover) developed a severe health crisis that led to her hospitalization and then, nearly overnight, her family whisking her 3,000 miles away to a different hospital without any notice or information. Emotions included both deep concern about her health, confusion and despair at her sudden disappearance and (for weeks) untraceableness, and more. The Demi-KLR right before this had transiting Saturn rising, natal and progressed Pluto rising (actually a progressed Mercury-Pluto square on the angles), and a partile (8') Moon-Neptune conjunction not far below the Descendant and precisely on the Westpoint.

Eventually I ended the romantic part of that relationship when I visited her out-of-state under a somewhat complex KLR that included transiting Neptune and Saturn across the horizon (but not in very close aspect to each other), a progressed Mars-Pluto opposition across the horizon (within orb of the Saturn but barely the Neptune), and progressed Sun on the MC (the Sun also being a few minutes from sesqui-square to natal Neptune FWIW).

An important new romantic relationship (with the woman to whom I am engaged to be married) began after an explosively intense sexual and emotional encounter just after a Demi-KLR with a progressed Mars-Pluto opposition across the horizon square natal Venus.

[David Stanton]

by SteveS on Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:27 am

Thanks Jim for your explicit answers to my two questions-much appreciated! You also have confirmed to me where Kay Cavender, another siderealist, said before Fagan passed away-- he considered the KLR equally important, maybe more so than the SLR. This makes a-lot sense to me because I know the importance of progressed Solar Moons and progressed Natal Moons. I have done very little work with the KLR. I have SF v. 7.0.9 but know no way to compute the KLR in the ‘Advanced Return Selections,’ which would allow me to zap out 13 KLR’S like we can with the SLR’S. With your computer skills, have you figured out a way we can rapidly compute our KLR’S with SF, or do we still have to use the slow way by computing the transits times to our progressed Moon’s and then computing separately the KLR charts?

S

[David Stanton]

by Jim Eshelman on Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:43 am

SteveS wrote:
I have done very little work with the KLR. I have SF v. 7.0.9 but know no way to compute the KLR in the ‘Advanced Return Selections,’ which would allow me to zap out 13 KLR’S like we can with the SLR’S.

In Solar Fikre (I have version 6), under Dynamic | Transits & Priogressions, I set up the following to get the KLR and demi for two consecutive months:

Set Date Options to start of current month. Set for 2 months. [Obviously you could set this for 12 months or whatever.]
Select Transits to Progressions.
For the Transits & Progs field under Point Selection, make/save an entry called Moon (that only has the Moon listed)
Under Aspect Selection, set HARM2 for both fields (2nd Harmonic, to catch both conjunction & opposition charts)
Save it under some useful name such as "Kinetic Lunar Returns"

The resulting charts will be slightkly off - never enough to really matter, but there's an easy way to see how much. When you view the resulting chart, you can hit Reports and see the longitude of the two Moons. These will be slightly off because the algorithm for calculating the timing of transits to progressions isn't as precise as the one usually used for return charts. I've never felt the need to recalculate a chart based on this but, in general, you can see how far off it is and decide whether to bother.

[David Stanton]

by SteveS on Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:23 am

Jim, I just ran my KLR’s for two months per your SF instructions (Cool SF technique btw). My next demi begins June 9th at 12:06:16 PM, CDT. The primary symbolism is most interesting to me. The planet closest to an angle (MC) is Mercury in the immediate foreground- 4 degree conjunct Sun. I have been retired for 4 years doing a-lot of posting on astrological forums to keep my mind active with my passion-Sidereal Astrology. About a month ago, a business opportunity presented itself which could temporality bring me out of my retirement. I have my first business appointment, beginning at lunch 11:30 AM June 9th, the day of my demi KLR. This requires me to travel 3 hours from my home nest and I very rarely travel that far from home. Mercury, very appropriate symbolism for travel and business! Another interesting point about my KLR’s now, is my natal progressed Moon is in partile 180 phase with my Natal Sun. A thought occurred to me. Since the KLR is based on the Moon’s transit to the progressed position of Natal Moon, maybe when we see the progressed Natal Moon forming partile aspects natal planets, particularly the natal or progressed Sun, we pay more attention to the KLR’s. Moon-Sun symbolisn has to do with meaningful events.

On page 73 of ‘Primer of Sidereal Astrology’, Chapter 16, titled Kinetic Returns, Firebrace writes:

Alexander Marr has made a special study of these kinetic returns and considers them of considerable value. A description of what was then called the lunar kinetic, which started the theory of kinetic returns, appeared in an early SPICA in an article by Cyril Fagan.

Dave Monroe, if you read this thread, I think if my memory is serving me you said you have all the copies of Spica. If you could isolate this early Spica Kinetic article by Fagan, please let us know. I think (not sure) that Kay Cavender told me Fagan stated in this Spica Kinetic article, he considered the KLR more important than the SLR—I am seeking verification of Fagan’s words pertaining to this SPICA article. Thanks again Jim for the SF technique for computing Kinetic’s.

S

[David Stanton]

by Jim Eshelman on Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:29 am

SteveS wrote:
A thought occurred to me. Since the KLR is based on the Moon’s transit to the progressed position of Natal Moon, maybe when we see the progressed Natal Moon forming partile aspects natal planets, particularly the natal or progressed Sun, we pay more attention to the KLR’s.

I'd say we always pay attention to the KLR.

In fact, I'd say it's almost the opposite... that the KLRs show us when long on-going progressions (and even those outside of the usual partile orb) are of greater importance (out of the whole time they are in orb).

[David Stanton]

by SteveS on Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:24 am

Jim wrote:
I'd say we always pay attention to the KLR.

I agree. For the 2nd harmonic we have 24 a year to consider. I am personally going to use your same guidelines in ‘Interpreting Solar Returns.’ I want to see tight or partile aspects in the immediate foreground, at least in the foreground, for meaningful manifestations. Or tight or partile aspects anywhere on the KLR wheel involving the KLR Moon. Your SF technique helps me a-lot. I will now pay much closer ‘attention’ to the 2nd harmonic KLR’s.

[David Stanton]

by Venus_Daily on Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:21 pm

I hope as an ameteur I can butt in, I have been computing KSSRs and KLRS for different situations, and have noticed that even in the case of KSSLRs sometimes they fall short compared to KSSRS, and then other years KSSRs can be amazing.....
As for transiting planets, I noticed that when they are on Q2 or Q1 angles with , which ever you like(with progressed planets), they do have some effect, in my experience transiting Mars and Saturn being the most pronounced.
It's a funny thing though....you mentioned about about luminaries...
As Pluto transited my progressed moon I had to deal with my brain tumor.
I thought it would be something more eventful.. wah wah wah

[David Stanton]

by Venus_Daily on Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:21 pm

I hope as an ameteur I can butt in, I have been computing KSSRs and KLRS for different situations, and have noticed that even in the case of KSSLRs sometimes they fall short compared to KSSRS, and then other years KSSRs can be amazing.....
As for transiting planets, I noticed that when they are on Q2 or Q1 angles with , which ever you like(with progressed planets), they do have some effect, in my experience transiting Mars and Saturn being the most pronounced.
It's a funny thing though....you mentioned about about luminaries...
As Pluto transited my progressed moon I had to deal with my brain tumor.
I thought it would be something more eventful.. wah wah wah

[David Stanton]

by Jim Eshelman on Sat Jun 04, 2011 12:05 am

You mean in terms of their effectiveness? Yes, rather similar - though I've always had the feeling that the progressed Moon of the natal chart triggered events of importance in the scope of the whole life, whereas progressions of the SSR Moon triggered events of importance in the scope of the immediate year.

[David Stanton]

by Venus_Daily on Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:49 am

I was referring to Kinetic Solars Vs Regular Solars, but it's good to know that the normal natal secondary progressed moon can have a more lasting effect.
I was reffering to the moons for the regular Solar and the Kinetic Solar(if they occur at the same time) can they over lap cancel eachother other out, or just co-exists possibly provoking one event after the other...although I know it is rare.
Maria

[David Stanton]

by Jim Eshelman on Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:20 pm

Venus_Daily wrote:
I was referring to Kinetic Solars Vs Regular Solars, but it's good to know that the normal natal secondary progressed moon can have a more lasting effect.

There are many simultaneous factors affecting us. To some extent, these always coexist, like different instruments (not necessarily all in the same orchestra or playing the same song!). Our lives are a mix of many threads at once - a given event even being (to be simplistic) in some ways good and some ways bad - a party being enjoyable some ways and unenjoyable in others.

Additionally, some of the "voices" are stronger. Secondary progressions are far "louder" in our lives than tertiary progressions, though both are highly effective. Transits to the natal chart (and, to a similar but slightly lesser extent, to the SSR) are stronger than any other factors, with the SLR (including its Demi) coming right behind. Some techniques "outrank" others, often drowning them out or making them seem to disappear.

For example, the Anlunar return is effective - sometimes really focusses what is brought to the foreground from a Solar Return for a two-to-four-week period. But when I watch them in my life day in, day out alongside the SLR and KLR, the Anlunar is generally worth ignoring.

I was reffering to the moons for the regular Solar and the Kinetic Solar(if they occur at the same time) can they over lap cancel eachother other out, or just co-exists possibly provoking one event after the other...although I know it is rare.

I might still be missing the question. Are you talking about aspects made by the SSR and KSR Moon? Or their progressions? Or transits to them? Or something else? (These are all distinctive questions that would draw different answers.)

[David Stanton]

by Venus_Daily on Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:59 pm

I apologize for the confusion Jim,
let me give you an example, for instance, if the SSR moon was coming to a cnj with Solar Jupiter and the KSR moon was coming to an opp with KSR Saturn, would these two seperate forces negate eachother or could they possibly just coexists(I know this is probably very very rare)
Which brings me to two other questions, I apologize for picking your brain so much, but can the KSR be used for timing just as as the SSR?
-Maria

[David Stanton]

by Jim Eshelman on Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:49 pm

Venus_Daily wrote:
let me give you an example, for instance, if the SSR moon was coming to a cnj with Solar Jupiter and the KSR moon was coming to an opp with KSR Saturn, would these two seperate forces negate eachother or could they possibly just coexists(I know this is probably very very rare)

I'd go (on theory) with the progressions of the SSR. - But there's no reason that both couldn't manifest concurrently.

can the KSR be used for timing just as as the SSR?

Yes, in theory. But I don't know of any actual work done on the subject. Personally, I've done none.

[David Stanton]

by Venus_Daily on Sun Jun 05, 2011 10:26 am

Thank You Jim, I have an example of the death of a woman which I will post involving a woman where her SSR fell flat, but her kenetic lit up like a Christmas tree, even the Q2 for the time of her death.
I just wanted to make sure I was not going coo-coo