King George IV & Queen Caroline

[Jim Eshelman]

In Spica, VOl. VI, No. 4, Martin Harvey - an assiduous researcher of data that Fagan praised a few times over the years - wrote on article showing how classic astrologers screwed up birth times. Among many other charts discussed, he brought forth those of England's King George IV, who was born August 12, 1762, 7:24 AM LMT, London, England. You'll find this chart in Solar Fire's preinstalled data files as 7:24 PM, but Harvey's primary sources make clear it was AM - including a newspaper article from the day of his birth.

He similarly dug out the birth data of King George's wife, Queen Caroline, who was born May 17, 1768 (NS), 4:00 PM LMT, Brunswick, Germany, according to the local church's records of her birth - in other words, it is AA data. In contrast, he noted that astrologer Raphael gave this as 4:30 AM without explanation. Harvey, at the end of his article, wrote:

Finally, as an ironical footnote to this article, I must confess that I found Raphael's 4h30m a.m. for Queen Caroline more suggestive than the official 4h p.m. Another negative factor in these genitures of George IV and his wife is lack of any striking indication of mutual revulsion; unless we consider his Saturn and Uranus astride her descendant, which in my view is insufficient.

So there we have it: Well-timed 18th century birth charts of a royal couple known for "mutual revulsion" to each other. What may we see the way we view things today? (BTW, Harvey's calculation of these charts were quite excellent, a good accomplishment for the time and without any ephemeris for the years. He must have used Shoch's tables for the classic planets, and then somehow had a reference for Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto that gave very close results. That his Pluto calculations were close is remarkable.)

To be clear, the birth data in play are:
King George IV, August 12, 1762, 7:24 AM LMT, London, England
Queen Caroline, May 17, 1768, 4:00 PM LMT, Brunswick, Germany

[Jim Eshelman]

Placing Caroline's planets about the outside of George's chart, and doing a "first impression" using the two luminaries, two malefics, and two benefics, I note first that her Moon is on his Midheaven. Her Sun squares his Neptune 3°, which shows various reactions not necessarily terrible. Her Venus squares his Mercury, her Jupiter opposes his Uranus. But then something he wasn't likely to see: Her Mars was on his Westpoint. (Harvey didn't use and probably wasn't aware of the Eastpoint axis.)

So at least we have one aspect that could be taken as hostility (though of course it has other expressions and I do read some of the other aspects as reasonable attraction, ability to converse, etc.)

Flipping this around - his planets about the outside of her chart - I see that his Moon is 4° from her Mercury, his Jupiter 2° the other side of her Mercury - two quite good Mercury aspects.

His Saturn and Uranus are, indeed, in the vicinity of her Descendant. I agree with Harvey that this is not enough. But his Saturn is about 7° above her Descendant and, were her birth time a little later it might be close enough to add his Saturn on her Descendant to her Mars on his Westpoint - enough of a two-way snark to perhaps meet the description of their relationship.

For "mutual revulsion," his Venus squares her Saturn but only if we allow more than 7° for the orb - which I do not. Nonetheless, I mention it as something that might especially have been considered in that era.

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Digging a little more - looking at every planet with close orbs to treat them as transits - I don't really find anything. I think we are left with each of them having a malefic on the other's angle amidst several other aspects that are mostly fine. Attraction isn't huge, but it;s adequate, and compatibility of minds and ability to converse is excellent. Perhaps the historic record is exaggerated, or perhaps not.

I do find some indirect factors in the individual nativities, though. These (if I had more time) would send me back into old biographies to learn more about them. What I notice is that Caroline has a most majestic, royal configuration that is quite outstanding. She has a 0°04' Jupiter-Pluto square which - I almost missed it - has Sun sesqui-square both from their midpoint. Furthermore, Jupiter rises. This gives her a singularly royal chart, but makes her a bit cantankerous and uncooperative despite being a gentle-but-honest double Taurus (ha! gentle like Queen Victoria!). Also, while she has a classic chart for producing a bounty of children, she isn't exactly cooperative and "traditionally affectionate." She has a close Venus-Uranus conjunction in Aries, her Mars opposed Neptune and closely sextiled Mercury in Aries ("she had a tongue on her," as they used to say); and, considering these aspects against the era, she may well have preferred the ladies to the gents.

This temperament may not have sat well with the Cancer-Aries King George, who, after all, was king! He seems quite the enthusiastic sportsman in love, with his Aries Moon-Jupiter conjunction closely opposite Mars. He had Venus rising, in her Fall and unaspected unless you count the 0°04' quincunx to Saturn. His chart is that of a man not particularly lucky in love though fairly lucky in sex.

So perhaps their individual natures played more of part in their reported antipathy than anything else.

[Jim Eshelman]

On the other hand, their Composite is combative and possibly hateful. In this regard, it's one of the best I've ever seen - a fabulous example of antipathy and conflict!!

7°00' Tau - Saturn
7°09' Tau - Moon
7°43' Leo - Neptune

12°04' Gem - MC
14°58' Sag - Pluto
16°49' Gem - Sun
19°10' Sag - Mars
22°35' Gem - Venus

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

their Composite is combative and possibly hateful. In this regard, it's one of the best I've ever seen - a fabulous example of antipathy and conflict!!

7°00' Tau - Saturn
7°09' Tau - Moon
7°43' Leo - Neptune

12°04' Gem - MC
14°58' Sag - Pluto
16°49' Gem - Sun
19°10' Sag - Mars
22°35' Gem - Venus

Indeed.

[Jim Eshelman]

I thought I'd test the technique of progressing each chart to the moment and place of the other's birth.

Progressing King George's chart to Queen Caroline's birth (and making at least small allowances for rounded off birth times):

11°30' Gem - SNQ EP
10°49' Gem - Caroline's Saturn

It's a single contact but exactly the right kind. In contrast, his progressed Moon 11°07' Cancer was within a degree of his own Mercury and square her Venus. Therefore, the example of good but not great.

Regressing Queen Caroline's chart to King George's birth: Her birth time is recorded precisely and shouldn't be expected to vary much from it. We do get this ghastly set of near-hits but nothing exact. (The progressed Mars-Neptune opposition is exact, though.)

12°37' Aqu - p Mars
13°06' Leo - r Neptune
15°06' Sco - SNQ Asc
16°42' Aqu - r Mars