Natal Chart - Scarlet Depths

[Jim Eshelman]

Also every Pluto thing you say Jim is 100 percent true to how I am.

And you have a close Moon-Pluto square, so that's no surprise.

[Soft Alpaca]

In reading more on myth and such, I relate the seed of undeniable existence you have spoken of closer to the goddess nxy. She was night born out of choas [nothing] and she birthed day, brightness, doom, destruction, death, sleep, fate, deceit, friendship, strife, and retribution.

Some of those are most literaly inescapable...

Why however would Pluto resonate more than my Sun or Moon [even if I do or don't want it too I can't argue the traits given to Pluto or the Pluto Moon aspect]?

[Jim Eshelman]

Why however would Pluto resonate more than my Sun or Moon [even if I do or don't want it too I can't argue the traits given to Pluto or the Pluto Moon aspect]?

Here's the thing you keep missing most: It's not one OR the other. Both are fundamentally you. Yet, when seemingly opposite clusters of traits are simultaneously, comparably strong in us, we do all sorts of things to deal with it initially. One common tactic is to embrace one set and reject or deny the other.

That's not wholeness, though. It's cutting out half your heart. The deeper truth is that you are all the Moon-Pluto stuff you actively embrace AND all the Sagittarius-Leo stuff you have worked so hard to reject and exclude. They seem incompatible, like one can't exist in the reality of the other, like one is the enemy of the other. Yet your wholeness, if you are successful in living life, will only be found in finding that which embraces and gives equal voice to both of them at once. (There are many things in life that give equal voice to both of them at once, and some of those things may be what does it for you.)

What's standing in your way (besides a few years to open up to your life more, probably ripening around your Saturn return) is your judgment (such a Sagittarian thing!) that there is something deeply wrong about (your understanding of) all those things we've been suggesting are Sagittarian.

[Soft Alpaca]

No just I think the royality thing is a bit out dated and I put things before self improvement/being elite, other than that I agree with Sag and Leo. Your right that these things may apply to me, but I can choose what I put first.

Also does Pluto have any association to the third eye? I am in fact intuition and emotionally driven so I am curious.

[FlorencedeZ.]

No just I think the royality thing is a bit out dated and I put things before self improvement/being elite, other than that I agree with Sag and Leo. Your right that these things may apply to me, but I can choose what I put first.

That's quite a Sagittarius-Leo thing to say

[Soft Alpaca]

Btw I am told that it was pitch black at my birth.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

You posted that elsewhere, but the Moon, which was a little less than 3/4 full was out the entire time between midnight and dawn on Dec. 27th 1999. Not to put too fine a point on it, the Moon was also at perigee, meaning it was closer to the Earth than usual, so appeared larger and brighter than usual.

Perhaps someone is thinking of the birth of one of your siblings.

[Soft Alpaca]

My father had me 18 years ago and another child 2 years ago [which idek if he was present at that child's birth]. My other siblings come from a diffrent dad.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

K. Well, not going to try to speculate why he remembers it the way he does.

[Jim Eshelman]

My father had me 18 years ago and another child 2 years ago [which idek if he was present at that child's birth]. My other siblings come from a diffrent dad.

So, we now have three competing pieces of information. Two of them come from your father. We'll run with whatever you pick, but you need to be the one to run with it.

I proposed the words "pitch black" earlier as one variation, and I'm guessing you ran those words past your dead. For the moment, then, let's assume that by "pitch black" he meant "it was dark light it was night time." It surely was dark when he headed to the hospital, and I don't know what windows he had available to him when you were born, whether he was in the room without windows or in a waiting room with windows... etc. (All about tracking down what information was really available to him at that exact minute, right?)

So, Scarlet, to the best of my memory, here are the three reports we have of your birth time:

1. Your birth certificate says 7:30.
2. Your dad said you were born at 7:15 AM.
3. Your dad said it was (I paraphrase) dark as night outside (which could only have been much earlier that 7:15, e.g., no later than 6:45.

No two of these can both be true.

As I mentioned before, if you come up with your event list we can do a rectification process that might (might) cause one to emerge as a clearly-most-likely time.

In the meantime, if you pick one of the three 1-2-3 items above, we can run with that chart for you.

Sound like a plan?

[Soft Alpaca]

Can we run a chart say at night. 51 minutes before visbile sunrise is dark that is at 6:40 am. Conflicts follow me in life i can't say one chart is right, so I guess ill.habe to read them all.

[Jim Eshelman]

Can we run a chart say at night. 51 minutes before visbile sunrise is dark that is at 6:40 am. Conflicts follow me in life i can't say one chart is right, so I guess ill.habe to read them all.

I would rather not do this by you picking what interpretation you like best. That's a really bad approach. I'd rather do it either by you taking what you know of the different reports of your birth and telling us which one you want to vote for as a starting point, or that you come up with events that we can check.

Moist terrible Tropical rectification comes specifically from trying to make a chart fit a preconception of what a person is like (e.g., trying to pick, from theory, the right Ascendant sign). All this does is pander to someone's existing ideas of what a person is like.

I find it humorous BTW that when I keep saying that 6:45 is the best fit for everything you've said about yourself and insist is so about you, you make a point of avoiding that exact time and picking 5 minutes earlier That doesn't make either 6:40 or 6:45 more right or more wrong, I just find it an interesting example of your persistent contrariness and having to come up with your own answer no matter what anyone suggests who might be trying to help you. (That is probably your most persistently displayed trait.)

That said, though I won't do a full workup for 6:40, I'll tell you that Mercury is your only foreground planet, 1°43' below Asc, and still manages to eek out that "hidden" Mercury-Neptune PVP square (2°50').

[Soft Alpaca]

Intresting. I was using a reference to the previous phase of night instead of taking a random time. I understand why you don't want to draw it up.

[Soft Alpaca]

I believe it's wide but Moon=Neptune/Jupiter through opposition in my chart. Rose colored glasses, spritual beliefs on an emotional receptive level?

[Jim Eshelman]

I believe it's wide but Moon=Neptune/Jupiter through opposition in my chart. Rose colored glasses, spritual beliefs on an emotional receptive level?

That's too wide. An orb for a midpoint is rarely taken beyond 1° and "orb extremists" don't go past 2°. This one is about 4°.

(You don't really need to go any further than your Sagittarius Sun for this, do you?)

[Soft Alpaca]

Ok and it is wide I see that.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

A friend of mine posted this recently. She's a college professor and tends to rant a bit over what she sees her students write in their papers. Anyway this seems relevant to your interests, Scarlet, and something I can agree with.

What does "elite" mean?
Time to announce again--just to head off name-calling--that yes, I am an elitist. "Elitist" means "a person who believes that a system or society should be ruled or dominated by an elite." Yes. A scientific elite. An educated elite. An informed elite. A literate elite. An elite of those who know what they're doing. Yes. If you are a professional, an educated person, a Navy Seal, etc., etc., then you obviously aspired to join some kind of "elite." The nice thing about the U.S.--well, once anyway--is that you CAN aspire to better yourself in these ways and join an "elite." If you think "elite" means "a group of snotboxes who act like the mean girls in middle school," then you need to explore the actual meaning of the word. Want your kids to go to an Ivy League school? Why? So they can be just like the hoi-polloi? I don't think so.

[Soft Alpaca]

A friend of mine posted this recently. She's a college professor and tends to rant a bit over what she sees her students write in their papers. Anyway this seems relevant to your interests, Scarlet, and something I can agree with.

What does "elite" mean?
Time to announce again--just to head off name-calling--that yes, I am an elitist. "Elitist" means "a person who believes that a system or society should be ruled or dominated by an elite." Yes. A scientific elite. An educated elite. An informed elite. A literate elite. An elite of those who know what they're doing. Yes. If you are a professional, an educated person, a Navy Seal, etc., etc., then you obviously aspired to join some kind of "elite." The nice thing about the U.S.--well, once anyway--is that you CAN aspire to better yourself in these ways and join an "elite." If you think "elite" means "a group of snotboxes who act like the mean girls in middle school," then you need to explore the actual meaning of the word. Want your kids to go to an Ivy League school? Why? So they can be just like the hoi-polloi? I don't think so.

Thanks jup sad. It's my Mars in Capricorn not wanting the connotation of elitist as an image. I'm realizing how much that planet placement actualy influences my life. [Not that I have a problem with it, Mars in Capricorn is one of the most befitting things about me].

[Soft Alpaca]

Note mercury-pluto at quarter-septile. It is befitting that they do go together as they are expressive(mercury) and powerful(pluto) on their own respects. I've read the aspect Jim has given (until future studies are done) I do see "intensified cognition/communication" within myself as well as the "heightened receptivity" of my Pluto-Moon. (Ironcly Pluto is as, I experience it, the most active part of my chart, followed by mercury then the luminaries (then the signs).

Seemingly the AC (rectified) is almost on mercury exactly , yet cannot be in aspect, and Pluto being approx degrees away is not in foreground, making Pluto seemingly dance around the angle. Curious to read angular Pluto in search of Parralels to my Pluto angle tango.

Update: angular Pluto describes me to a T. With one exception, that is the agnostic is replaced with "pantheism" instead of not being able to chose one faith I chose them all (they are all equally as existent).

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

I've read the aspect Jim has given (for lack of better resource)

Is that what you meant to say?

[Soft Alpaca]

Yes, but not in the connotation you have perceived it. Jim has not done much extensive work on the 7th harmonic aspects as a whole, he and I discussed they probably are different than any dynamic or flat aspects he has done work on so far. However, those would be the next best thing to having the septile family of aspects thoroughly studied.

[Soft Alpaca]

Question on transits to the Eastpoint. Do they act with angularity? [Curious on why Pluto angular is more relatable than that of Jupiter or the Sun (whom I consider secondary angular planets after mercury)].

[Jim Eshelman]

Question on transits to the Eastpoint. Do they act with angularity? [Curious on why Pluto angular is more relatable than that of Jupiter or the Sun (whom I consider secondary angular planets after mercury)].

I don't know what you mean by "act with angularity."

The Eastpoint-Westpoint are considered angles, yes. What they really are is the square to Midheaven measured along the equator (in a coordinate called Right Ascension). So, you can't trust an ecliptical conjunction with them in general, although you generally can at the present time.

That is, depending on how far Pluto is from the ecliptic, it can cross angles at vastly different places. Today, Pluto is only 0°12' north of the ecliptic, so its mundane angularity will be about the same as its ecliptical crossing. But when you were born, Pluto was almost 11° north of the ecliptic, so it crossed angles when they were far removed from the same zodiacal longitude.

During the '70s and '80s, we kept crib sheets on hand to estimate when Pluto was really on an angle. For the latitude of Los Angeles, we would routinely add 7° to Pluto's longitude to get the longitude when it crossed MC or IC (same with EP or WP), subtract about 3° to get when it rose, or add about 40° (!) to get when it set.

You were born almost 20 years after that, and Pluto had moderated its celestial latitude, but was still kinda high. Your Pluto is 16°32' Scorpio, but it crossed angles (at your birthplace) with the following longitudes:

MC/IC 17°57' Scorpio
Asc 9°28' Scorpio
Dsc 28°30' Scorpio

BTW, if you are using the rectified time of 6:52 AM, you do still have Sun foreground but not Jupiter.

[Soft Alpaca]

Ok Jim. Why is the Sun still foreground but not Jupiter? I'm just trying to figure out what's going on with Pluto in my chart. Maybe i just want to relate to it, however my intuition says otherwise. It like I said seems to dance around the angle.

[Jim Eshelman]

Ok Jim. Why is the Sun still foreground but not Jupiter? I'm just trying to figure out what's going on with Pluto in my chart. Maybe i just want to relate to it, however my intuition says otherwise. It like I said seems to dance around the angle.

Your mundoscope shows Sun 8°13' below Ascendant for that time, which is within the 10° threshold, though wide. Jupiter, though, is 11°39' from IC, outside the 10° mark.

Another way to put it is that Sun is less than a third of the 1st house from Ascendant, while Jupiter is more than a third of the 4th house from IC (measured mundanely, so other little factors don't intrude).

If we go just be zodiacal longitude (which isn't entirely reliable for this, but it will make a point), Sun is 10°09' from Ascendant and the 1st house is 42°29' wide, so Sun is (just in longitude) 24% of the house away from Ascendant. Jupiter is 7°53' from IC and the 4th house has 20°04' of the zodiac in it, so Jupiter is 39% of the 4th house away from the angle. - Sun is less than a third, Jupiter is more than a third.

[Soft Alpaca]

Thanks for explaining that to me Jim! So mudanely speaking Pluto A.C. is useless as it's over 51 percent of the 12th house away. I don't trust the house systems that much Jim, I will say that.

[Soft Alpaca]

I will really have to read up on Saturn, Mars,and the Moon now. Saturn is almost due north in my local sky chart, moon is 5 degrees below due west, and Mars 7 below due East.

Intresting that the Moon is one third away from the west almost exactly. Mars is just above the third to the east (.36 vs .33). Saturn is .31 off from due north.

Having read over the angularity for these planets I not greater significance in Saturn than even Mercury. Followed by the Moon, then Mars, then the Sun (which is hardly felt).

[Jim Eshelman]

What do you mean by a "local sky chart"? Do you mean the way the sky looks where you are right this minute?

Saturn, when you posted, is nowhere near north, though Mars is about a degree above the east and Moon about 6 degrees below the west.

[Soft Alpaca]

RECONFIGURED

[Jim Eshelman]

At birth, sorry for not clarifying.

Well, no, actually. At your birth, Saturn was quite a ways away from north (in the 5th house), Mars was far below the east (in the middle of the 2nd house), and Moon far above the west (high in the 8th house).

[Soft Alpaca]

You are right Jim. My bad my astrology system is mixing names. Maybe?

Talking about the azimuth local sky chart correct?

i will remove the chart after it is viewed.

[Jim Eshelman]

Viewed

OK, you meant Local Space Chart, which is another name for an azimuth chart.

Something is wrong here, though. It looks like you're using the same time - 6:52 am EST. But for Chambersburg, Saturn is 27° east of due north, Mars is 15° north of due south, and Moon is 36° south of due west.

What you should see is that Neptune about 3° from due east.

[Soft Alpaca]

Astro.com has matched your math every other time. Why falter now?

Answer:sidereal chart was selected, screwed with the results

[Jim Eshelman]

Astro.com has matched your math every other time. Why falter now?

Here's your "local space chart" from Solar Fire, which matches all the right azimuth figures. I'll come back and remove it when you say you've seen it. Please check that the data is correct in the upper left. - It looks like your diagram matches mine, and the numbers on the diagram, but the numbers you cited earlier don't match.

[Soft Alpaca]

Could this be ground for exploration into Neptune? With it being 3 degrees away from due east it seems worth looking into angular Neptune. It also reveals a semi-novile Sun-Neptune aspect?

[Jim Eshelman]

Could this be ground for exploration into Neptune? With it being 3 degrees away from due east it seems worth looking into angular Neptune. It also reveals a semi-novile Sun-Neptune aspect?

What I have found so far is that planets on the Vertex-Antivertex axis (which is this due east-west you're seeing is) have no particular meaning, but that 3-D aspects they form to planets on horizon or meridian are important. That's why I mentioned the 3-D square that shows up for Neptune to your rising Mercury for this new time.

[Jupiter Sets at Dawn]

Scarlet, a local space chart is used by some astrologers to suggest places on earth where that planet would affect you strongly. Not everybody finds it useful. Local Space charts are meant to be superimposed on a map, with your birthplace at the center. There's a lot on youtube showing how.

[Soft Alpaca]

I've read the aspect of Mercury-Neptune however do relate. I can say it would be interesting to see if the cardinal directions in people's charts act as angles (as in each direction is a hard arrow to the individual. Maybe I'm not understanding Mercury-Neptune in terms of the math and puzzles sides but aside from that I can relate .However Out of all the angular planets as well as aspects I've read I can say that Neptune being angular is one of the better descriptors to the energy I've been saying my chart doesn't express.

[Soft Alpaca]

Scarlet, a local space chart is used by some astrologers to suggest places on earth where that planet would affect you strongly. Not everybody finds it useful. Local Space charts are meant to be superimposed on a map, with your birthplace at the center. There's a lot on youtube showing how.

Thanks. I'll keep that in mind.

[Danica]

Out of all the angular planets I've read I can say that Neptune us one of the better descriptors to the energy I've been saying my chart doesn't express.

9 days ago, in another thread, you said:

I've noted there is a particular sensitivity to Neptune in me lately and I believe it's transit is aspecting my moon, but everything I've been reading on unaspected Neptune and first house Neptune I've noted as espically accurate. In fact I'm even considering working on a ship as a chef after school. Would said change in birth chart time change the view on this too?

https://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php? ... 187#p15753

[Soft Alpaca]

By first house Neptune I was implying some sort of connection to the personality on some level of angular magnitude. I just however saw Jims speculation of Mercury hard aspect Neptune.

Pitcular means more than normal (which was true). It was a Moon transit 72 degrees away from Neptune. That is my miscommunication in that post, I apologize.

"More exploration is needed here before I can be as specific as I would like; but they seem to be very able-seeming people who turn out to have very colorful, complex, and obstinate psychological problems. They are never what they seem on the surface, definitely much deeper and more complex. Though distinctly pathological, their pathologies are usually so deeply rooted, so much a part of their life long before adulthood, that these do not necessarily spill over to cause harm on the people around them."

This covers my mental state fairly accurate.

[Soft Alpaca]

Separate from the Mercuy angular energy in the chart, focusing on more powerful rather than more expressive, I've read Pluto-Jupiter. It incorporates Jupiter in my chart in an accurate way, ie I understand how Jupiter and its aspects actualy function and relate to me personally.


This leaves only the Sun sign/angularity at a loss to me. Maybe the Sun being unaspected and angular promotes the unaspected traits of the sun.

"Most natives felt inwardly fragmented; and identified strongly with the inner self and abilities/traits being on opposite sides of a fence with no way of bringing them together. Suggested interpretation: inner self feels fragmented or disconnected from the rest of character. "

[Soft Alpaca]

Questioning triplicty of power planets in my chart. I think Pluto-Jupiter are two forces of the three (the Moon seems to malable to be powerful in its own, nature, and Mercury while angular doesn't connect with any luminaries so expression but not power is there).

Looking at Saturn- trine the Moon, however not a part of the same connection as Moon-Jupiter-Pluto (expriences the Moons strength after Pluto has "had it's way with it".)

Looking Mars- exalted and expressive through Mercury and Venus, but lacking any pitcular connection to a luminary or Pluto. Jupiter connection is experienced softly

Looking at Uranus- noviles Sun with .98 orb. Aspects Saturn (generational and wide), wide Jupiter quintile.

[Jim Eshelman]

So, exactly what concrete things are you saying?

[Soft Alpaca]

Jupiter and Pluto are concrete forces in my chart when stated together, however I'm debating Uranus vs Saturn as the third planetary energy conerstone in my chart. Mars sign is my most expressive at this moment in time. People can mis-perceive me as my mercury sign.

What is your opinion on Uranus vs Saturn in my chart Jim? Also looking at my posts.

[Jim Eshelman]

What is your opinion on Uranus vs Saturn in my chart Jim? Also looking at my posts.

Saturn has a strong trine to your Moon and a distant trine to your Sun. I'd say it's a moderately strong influence only except Mars in Capricorn pumps it up.

Uranus has no particular distinction. It isn't angular, doesn't aspect either luminary, and you have nothing (let alone anything key) in Aquarius. Nor does it have any strong aspects. Uranus really isn't a player in your chart.

So, I'd say Saturn is about 4th or 5th most important planet of the 10, and Uranus isn't in the running at all.

[Soft Alpaca]

You would place Sun-Moon-Jupiter-Pluto (Saturn)?

Uranus noviles things.

The reason why I'm not using luminaries is because I dint them expressive but not on their own character. Ie I'm not pitcularly Solarian or lunarian (unless you think I am and is be curious as to why)? However I am pitcularly Jovial and Plutonian (next would be Saturnine unless something comes before it)?

Although it's loose the Sun expresses Saturns energy I believe more than it stays true to pure solar energy.

[Jim Eshelman]

The planets that define character most are those that are dignified in the luminary signs, those that are closest to the angles, and those that have the strongest (usually closest, usually dynamic aspects) aspects to luminaries. That's bottom-line where every horoscope rests.

Making up new rules doesn't change that.

[Soft Alpaca]

I know that. However id be lying if I would say I'm a lunarian or Solarian heavy person. Is be lying if I said im mercurial strong rather than mercury expressive.

I'm talking about strictly pure planetary energy in the chart, not signs. The planets that compose a person are just as important as the signs and aspects.

I'm asking specficly for the powerful planets in my chart. Those whoes specfic traits define me on a powerful level.

Ive established mercury on the expressive side. And possibly the Sun depending on the validity of house systems.

[Soft Alpaca]

By what you have said

Sun:angular and dignified
Mercury: angular

Jupiter: dignifed and via luminary

Pluto:via luminary (possibly dignified)
Saturn:via luminary